What Is Pro Touring?

[tyoneal]

Greg:

Your comment is so true and so common. It gave me a good laugh. I'm glad I'm not the only one that encounters that.

Thanks,

Ty

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Donny ---- I got a good laugh from your post. I call all my cars "hot rods" - to include the race cars... To me - they're just cars that have been hot rodded to various levels. I.E., "modified" in some way. If I'm discussing cars with someone and I say "I have race cars and hot rods" - their next question is "what kind of racing do you do"... then I have to back track to explain that we don't really "race"... and blah blah blah. If I just say - I have some hot rods... their next question is "what kind of cars are they".... and I can toss out a couple years - and leave it at that. If it's a car guy - they'll ask for more details.

We all know a hot rod when we see it... we all know a race car when we see it (even if it's at a street car event)... and we all know what a PT car looks like... and we all know what a Pro Street car looks like... I'm pretty sure anyone that spends any time on, or is a member of this site knows a PT car without having to check with Websters or Wiki.

I think I'd like to define Pro Poser as a car with wide tires on wheels that have incorrect backspacing. It has to sit funny, and still have drum rear brakes and stock suspension. The owner must be overheard telling the casual observer he has 650 HP because he's running a 350 (it's 9:1 compression) with camel hump heads, a Holley 750, and a "cam".

[tyoneal]

Sieg:

That is probably the truest statement I've heard.

Well done,

Ty
======================

Originally Posted by Sieg

Hey!

You left out my category which I've been attempting to perfect for over 30 years now with limited success...........Pro Tinkering.

[Panteracer]

Greg said a car that is modified
I don't think I have owned one
other than the wife's grocery getters
that hasn't been hot rodded

I was looking at 67 Gt 500 years back
that had a 100 mile perfect restoration

My 16 year old son at the time said dad
what are you going to do with it?
Kid was a lot smarter than me because he
knew I modified everything I owned

Panteracer

[ironworks]

First off, What does it really matter?

To say that a car is or is not anything because it has or doesn't have one thing is just Crazy. What does it matter if the car has competed in an autocross. Lots of people buy guns and never shot them. Lots of people buy food they never eat.

I have said that Pro-touring was the best thing that ever happened to amateur road racing. Lots of people have sold there super high end show car that they ran on the race course for race cars or built cars that are less show and more go because of this build style influencing them to try actual racing.

Pro-Touring is nothing more then a build style. To most people I think it means you have taken a muscle car and put some parts that modernize the handling and style in a direction toward a race car. Some are modified far more then others. With usually some kind of modern power plant for improved power and efficiency.

But with out the Muscle car part in the definition you could lump Greg or Gwen's 33 into that pile as it is modernized with suspension that works better and has a modernized power plant.

But saying something has to be raced on track to be a Pro-Touring car seems wrong. It seems to me it would now be a race car. I'm sure that is how your insurance adjuster would see it.

Pro-Touring is an adjective not a noun.

[tazzz2_ca]

Originally Posted by ironworks

First off, What does it really matter?

To say that a car is or is not anything because it has or doesn't have one thing is just Crazy. What does it matter if the car has competed in an autocross. Lots of people buy guns and never shot them. Lots of people buy food they never eat.

I have said that Pro-touring was the best thing that ever happened to amateur road racing. Lots of people have sold there super high end show car that they ran on the race course for race cars or built cars that are less show and more go because of this build style influencing them to try actual racing.

Pro-Touring is nothing more then a build style. To most people I think it means you have taken a muscle car and put some parts that modernize the handling and style in a direction toward a race car. Some are modified far more then others. With usually some kind of modern power plant for improved power and efficiency.

But with out the Muscle car part in the definition you could lump Greg or Gwen's 33 into that pile as it is modernized with suspension that works better and has a modernized power plant.

But saying something has to be raced on track to be a Pro-Touring car seems wrong. It seems to me it would now be a race car. I'm sure that is how your insurance adjuster would see it.

Pro-Touring is an adjective not a noun.

What he said,,, enjoy the Dam things and share the passion with others...

[cluxford]

For all the Camaro PT owners

[Neil B]

In my opinion, a build style usually has at least one defining characteristic:

Pro Street = wheel tubs with bigs and littles
Gasser = sky high front end
Lead Sled = lowered with chopped top
Hot Rod = no fenders and visible engine
Track Car = gutted interior with full cage
Low Rider = hydraulics
Resto Mod = restored car with period mods

For Pro Touring, it's a lowered suspension with upgraded wheels and tires.

But I call everything a Hot Rod and my 69 Z28 has stock brakes sitting behind Forgelines, so what do I know.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Neil B

But I call everything a Hot Rod and my 69 Z28 has stock brakes sitting behind Forgelines, so what do I know.

Nothing wrong with that.... They're not Intros!! LOL

[Che70velle]

Originally Posted by tyoneal

che70velle:

I think you went in the right direction, but missed the specific a small amount.

This is a bit long however, I think it hits the nail on the head. Let me know what you think. (You might need to make the window a bit larger.)

This describes what we strive for except I think we should be called:

American Classic Touring Cars or American Classic GT
===============================
Grand tourer/Grand Touring "Car", (not to be confused with a GT Race Car)
From Wikipedia,

"Gran turismo" redirects here. For other uses, see Gran Turismo.

Classic examples of Grand Touring Cars.

Porsche 911, a GT model built since 1964

A classic Gran Turismo, the 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO

1953 Bentley Continental grand tourer

A grand tourer (Italian: gran turismo) (GT) is a performance or luxury automobile capable of high speed or spirited long-distance driving. The most common format is a two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement.

The term derives from the Italian phrase gran turismo, a tribute to the tradition of the grand tour, used to represent automobiles regarded as grand tourers, able to make long-distance, high-speed journeys in both comfort and style. The English translation is grand touring.

Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG

The Grand Tourer, Grand Turismo, Grand Routiere, or GT terms are the most misused and abused terms in motoring.[1] According to author Sam Dawson, "the ideal is of a car with the ability to cross a continent at speed and in comfort yet provide driving thrills when demanded" and it should exhibit the following:[1]

"Ideally, the GT car should have been devised by its progenitors as a Grand Tourer, with all associated considerations in mind."
"It should be able to transport at least two in comfort with their luggage and have room to spare - probably in the form of a two plus two (2+2) seating arrangement."
The engines "should be able to cope with cruising comfortably at the upper limits on all continental roads without drawbacks or loss of useable power."
The design, both "inside and out, should be geared toward complete control by the driver."
Its "chassis and suspension provide suitable handling and roadholding on all routes" during travels.
Grand tourers emphasize comfort and handling over straight-out high performance or spartan accommodations. Historically, most GTs have been front-engined with rear-wheel drive, which creates more space for the cabin than mid-mounted engine layouts. Softer suspensions, greater storage, and more luxurious appointments add to their driving appeal.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to your opinion.

Take care,

Ty
=================================

So Ty, were a bunch of hobbyists. Nothing more. We come from all walks of life, and all of us share a common creed, which is a passion for cars. All we are doing here is taking an otherwise stock automobile, and transforming it into a better handling, more efficient running, safer to ride in car, while improving the looks somewhat, and that's (improving the looks) debatable to many. I don't really know how or why someone first called this "Pro-Touring", but to MOST people, it refers only to a style, and doesn't hold guidelines on how far you need to modify your car. I know that I for one, would be outta here if I had to meet a criteria comparable to a Steilow build, with custom built, one off parts, and carbon fiber body panels. I simply am not willing to put that kind of money into a car. I could replicate my home, for that kind of coin. What I'm trying to say is that we all have modded our cars on different levels, to the point of where there not really two cars exactly alike. So I suggest that we leave the title, or name of this hobby alone, before it becomes a formality of having to have an exact amount of certain items, in order to be accepted into the hobby. But you are suggesting that the HOBBY be renamed: AMERICAN CLASSIC TOURING CARS? or AMERICAN CLASSIC GT?

[tyoneal]

Ironworks:

Thanks for the input. I think I would approach this in a direct manner.

Pro-Touring
[B]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pro-Touring is a style of classic muscle car with enhanced suspension components, brake system, drivetrain, and aesthetics, including many of the amenities of a new performance car.

These modified muscle cars have been developed to function as well as, or to surpass, the capabilities of the foremost modern performance vehicles.

Functioning requires the act of trying it to see if the attempt was successful or not.

Pro-Touring cars are built with an emphasis on function and are intended to be driven.

(See Above)
====================================
Whether they are driven on the street, the race track, the drag strip, or through cones at an auto-cross is of indifference. Regardless of the location, pro-touring cars are destined to be driven.[1]

As I read this, apparently it is a car capable of doing any of the above. Unless you try, and are successful, doing at least two of the above, then it would not[B/] be a Pro Touring Car.

1) Every legal Street Car can drive on the street, so it must be able to pass inspection and drive on the street.

2) Since (I think) we ALL agree that NOT ALL cars are Pro Touring Cars .....

then it must be able to

3) Be developed to function, ie. perform comfortably (Showing some kind of finness) at another activity/venue. The activities are listed race track, drag strip, through cones, auto cross, and the like. It doesn't say formaly, it doesn't say in competition, I think it could easily be said that it could stay ONLY on the street.

It just must perform as well as, or to surpass, the capabilities of the foremost modern performance vehicles.

A PT Car MUST prove it Runs, Can Run on the Street, and Perform at the minimum to a pretty high level.

It cannot be because you think it is PT.
It cannot be PT because it looks like it is PT.
It must Run AND be Street legal.
It must Run in such a way to establish it is/as PT.

That doesn't sound gray and nebulous, does it?

Originally Posted by ironworks

First off, What does it really matter?

For some it doesn't matter, for others it does. If your selling it definitely matters, if you have bought PT parts, or a PT car and it doesn't perform than YOU do.

To say that a car is or is not anything because it has or doesn't have one thing is just Crazy.

The Definition seems to lean in favor of my statements as NOT being "Crazy".

What does it matter if the car has competed in an autocross. Lots of people buy guns and never shot them. Lots of people buy food they never eat.

It doesn't say it MUST compete, it does say it must PERFORM. (Fairly High)

Lots of people buy Gun and don't shoot them, TRUE. ALL manufacturers test fire Guns to make sure they work as intended. Otherwise, you might just have instead a, "Lock, Stock, and Barrel".

I have said that Pro-touring was the best thing that ever happened to amateur road racing. Lots of people have sold there super high end show car that they ran on the race course for race cars or built cars that are less show and more go because of this build style influencing them to try actual racing.

I agree 100%. I think it's been awesome for everyone!

Pro-Touring is nothing more then a build style.

I think the definition says it is more than a build style. (A static 69 Camaro with a big engine and lots of pricey go fast parts can ONLY be said it is in the "Style of" a PT car. A painting in the style of "Van Gogh", it not even close to a real, or proven "Van Gogh".

To most people I think it means you have taken a muscle car and put some parts that modernize the handling and style in a direction toward a race car. Some are modified far more then others. With usually some kind of modern power plant for improved power and efficiency.

It still must Perform to adhere to the specific definition.

But with out the Muscle car part in the definition you could lump Greg or Gwen's 33 into that pile as it is modernized with suspension that works better and has a modernized power plant.

I agree, I wouldn't throw their cars out either, I do think that part of the definition should be amended to Cars 25+ years old, then it would collect all the cars that are everything that seems to matter. Whether I like it or not since I didn't write the definition, I can only say '33's, P/U Truck's, Full Size 4 Door Cars etc. don't fall within the definition of a PT car.

I think that part should change, do you agree? Also, with 25+ y/o cars being the cut off there will always be a new supply of cars for people in the future. Isn't 25 years when the emission standards drop off for a lot of states?

But saying something has to be raced on track to be a Pro-Touring car seems wrong. It seems to me it would now be a race car. I'm sure that is how your insurance adjuster would see it.

It doesn't say it has to be raced on a track, it says, "it must perform as well as, or to surpass, the capabilities of the foremost modern performance vehicles." I doubt if you really brought your car up to much higher performance standards than it was, in all areas, you would probably get no fuss about it. (But to say that IS Presumptuous, I'm just guessing.)

Pro-Touring is an adjective not a noun.

This was a sticky one, I had to look it up. Evidently words ending in "ing", are pretty complicated. You decide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ing

Thanks again for the questions.

Ty