1985 Monte Carlo SS known as Barney

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Is it just me or is that steering column moving around a lot??? Not picking on you or the car.... calling it out because I saw it and maybe it's nothing or maybe there is a way to "fix it".... Or maybe it's just my old sorry azz eyes and the shadows.

I thought your driving was pretty dang smooth! And maybe Ron will comment on hand position -- because I'd like to learn from this too.... but I was thinking that your left hand should stay on the 9 O'clock side of the wheel rather than coming all the way across your body?? IDK...

No, your eyes aren't fooling you, the steering column was about ready to fall apart that day. The tilt mechanism started to get a little bit of play in it at the SCCA Solo Nationals in Sept and I just hoped it would hold together through the end of the season...that last race day in Oct did it in big time though.

I actually just got the column back from Jim down at GMTILT, he completely rebuilt the tilt mechanism, changed some things on the column itself and prettied it up quite a bit. Might even get it back in the car this weekend.

Regarding hand position, different instructors will tell you to do different things with your hands depending on the situation, but above and beyond that, I believe in order to have complete control of the wheel (and your car) your hands have to be where you want them to be and are comfortable with them. For instance, at Gateway on the road course, my instructor kept trying to get me to put my hands at 9 and 3 o'clock, but this put my elbows right into my seat bolsters during a turn and I couldn't do what I wanted to with the wheel because of that. With my hands at 10 and 2 my arms were more free to control the wheel, creating more car control. I also like to bring the opposite hand for the turn (ie right hand on a left hand turn) down on the wheel before the turn so that once in the turn the hand is at about 3 o'clock, same but opposite for a right hand turn. Once I explained this to the instructor he agreed.

On an autocross course, I am typically thinking at least a corner ahead of where I'm at on the course and will try to get my hands where I'll need them to be on the wheel for the next corner as well. That's why you'll see me moving them either one way or the other on the wheel, so they'll be ahead enough of the wheel so I won't have to cross them up during a turn. It doesn't always work out perfectly but knowing how much I'll have to turn the wheel to negotiate a turn helps so that I can position my hands ahead of that movement. A smaller steering wheel and\or a faster steering box would negate this extra hand movement, but this works okay for me now.

A lot of guys racing these older muscle cars have to turn them way more than I have to turn this one, so I don't feel too bad about what I have to do .

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by Panteracer

Lance,
I always tell everyone when you and the car become one
then it is working.. I know it is tough to figure things out
when you make a bunch of changes to the car.. I am in that
boat now... Looks like things are working out for you
I sometimes tell myself to slow down to go fast.. pushing it
(unless you are Danny Popp) seems to work against you

And seat time, seat time are hard to replace
I hate to say it but taking mine out this weekend to the
coast for a spin.. suppose to be in the 70's here in Kali
No real winter here.. keep at it and have fun that is
why we are doing this

Bob

Bob,

I stayed away from making changes to the car for most of last season for just that reason. I told Ron that I wanted to work on the driver that year, not the car. And I have found the need to slow down to go faster at times as well.

What I find happening to me, and I think this is either street tire related or maybe more specifically Falken 615K related...is once I slide the car by over driving it, which ever end I slid, immediately continues to slide in the next few corners even if it isn't being over drove. Usually it's my rear tires...I call it making them angry. If I carry too much speed or exit too hard out of a corner and spin the rear tires...when I go into the corner after that, the rear steps out MUCH earlier than I expect it too...then the whole process compounds on itself and the run is ruined. If I just back it up a tad and don't make that initial slide, they continue to stick for the whole run and I'll put a great time down.

This killed me at the Pro Solo last fall because sitting there at Christmas tree light start with a competitor beside me, I'd launch hard every time and spin the back tires. From then on in each and every run, I couldn't keep the back end under the car and the looseness got continually worse each run. I actually spun the car twice that day...and I NEVER spin this car out on a course.

There were other factors involved as well which made the bad situation worse, but the making the tires angry is one of the things I look back on and realize now and vow to try to avoid in the upcoming season.

[GregWeld]

Makes sense to me Lance!

[Panteracer]

Lance,
It is hard for me going from dot autocross or road race tires
to these 200 rated tires.. takes all my confidence of railing a
turn into tiptoe land...I agree to leave the car alone if it is neutral
and work on the driving part

I ran my Pantera at Optima with 200 rated tires and they
were crap.. ran it at the last Goodguys and used my dot
V-710 Kumos and it stuck like glue.. just fun runs but
it was the 3rd fastest time and I only ran the first day
and they are road race compound that takes a little while
to heat up

Newer 200 tires coming out might be getting better because of the SCCA,
Speedway and Optima series.. I think whenever I can run
my dot kumos (American Autocross series etc) that is what
I am going to do.. or just do fun runs at Goodguys it is
just for fun for me..

Bob

[SSLance]

When I first started with the SCCA autocross group, there were two schools of thought regarding tires passed along to me from the veterans. Many told me to learn how to drive on street tires first before going to R compounds because the R compound tires would mask bad driving habits. The rest were already sucking on the R compound crack pipe and they told me to get R compounds on the car as soon as possible if I really wanted it to work.

Since that time, the SCCA is making a concerted effort to weed all of the street class cars off of R compounds and it is interesting watching those that have made a living so to speak with R compounds on their street cars having to readjust their driving back to street tires. Some are doing okay at it, others not so much at all.

Granted, I only ran second hand 60 series A6s on 16" rims on my car but I found the 40 series Falken 615Ks on 17" rims (that were basically the exact same tread width as the A6s) to be easier to drive on than the A6s. They responded better, they spoke to me better, and they were more predictable when you got too or stepped over the line of grip.

They may be down just a bit on overall grip from the A6s, but I like how they feel better and as long as everyone else has the grip with their tires, I'm okay with them.

One friend has a newer Miata that he ran R compounds on for years and is a great driver. He put Rivals on it 2 years ago and HATED them, so much so that he went Chump car racing instead... Well maybe that wasn't the whole reason but it's funny because he runs Falken 615ks on his Chump Miata now and does fine with them.

[Panteracer]

I have really only autocrossed about 6 times in the last 5 years
Been running on the road race courses but want to get back
to autocrossing more often now that my Firebird is getting sorted

I remember when first it was yokes, then Hoosiers then Kumos
One tire always seemed to be a little better than another
I have Rivals on the Pantera and to be truthful some of the
problem is I could only get a shorter tire out back and taller in
the front and the car does not like it.... but you are right you
get spoiled with R compound tires

Bob

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Going to have to hook that string to his hands from his feet?? LOL

He's gotten pretty good. But I gave him crap before when I watched one of his videos last year. I forget my exact smart a** remark, but it was something along the lines of needing to take a wet/dry vac to the track to keep up with the saw dust.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by SSLance

Have you watched this video yet Ron?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPQhQPgbDDU

This was from the last event of last year...

I take from the sailor language you hit a cone?

You looked good in the video, but your steering column looked like it was flexing quite a bit. When you get your good seats & belts in the car ... that hold you in place better ... that should go away.

Was it a pretty fast lap ?

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Is it just me or is that steering column moving around a lot??? Not picking on you or the car.... calling it out because I saw it and maybe it's nothing or maybe there is a way to "fix it".... Or maybe it's just my old sorry azz eyes and the shadows.

I thought your driving was pretty dang smooth! And maybe Ron will comment on hand position -- because I'd like to learn from this too.... but I was thinking that your left hand should stay on the 9 O'clock side of the wheel rather than coming all the way across your body?? IDK...

I saw that steering column flex too!

So Greg I think you know my philosophy ... is for the driver to gently & smoothly shuffle the wheel their hands ... and not get crossed up. But I've seen guys with the funkiest hand action & positions still win races.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by SSLance

Bob,

I stayed away from making changes to the car for most of last season for just that reason. I told Ron that I wanted to work on the driver that year, not the car. And I have found the need to slow down to go faster at times as well.

What I find happening to me, and I think this is either street tire related or maybe more specifically Falken 615K related...is once I slide the car by over driving it, which ever end I slid, immediately continues to slide in the next few corners even if it isn't being over drove. Usually it's my rear tires...I call it making them angry. If I carry too much speed or exit too hard out of a corner and spin the rear tires...when I go into the corner after that, the rear steps out MUCH earlier than I expect it too...then the whole process compounds on itself and the run is ruined. If I just back it up a tad and don't make that initial slide, they continue to stick for the whole run and I'll put a great time down.

This killed me at the Pro Solo last fall because sitting there at Christmas tree light start with a competitor beside me, I'd launch hard every time and spin the back tires. From then on in each and every run, I couldn't keep the back end under the car and the looseness got continually worse each run. I actually spun the car twice that day...and I NEVER spin this car out on a course.

There were other factors involved as well which made the bad situation worse, but the making the tires angry is one of the things I look back on and realize now and vow to try to avoid in the upcoming season.

Greg knows my funny phrases.
1. Don't surprise the tires ... by doing things abruptly with the steering wheel, brakes or throttle ... or they'll bite you.
2. Don't piss the tires off by sawing on the wheel & over steering ... or they give up.
3. Keep the tires happy & they'll respond by giving you grip ... and grip is corner speed.

We can't be naive enough to think we can abuse the tires and they'll still perform at their peak. It doesn't work that way. The key is driving them up to the edge ... their limits of grip ... as smoothly as possible.