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Old 08-25-2018, 10:29 PM
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Lose $20...no big deal
Lose $200...you're pissed
Lose $2,000...you're ready to kick some a$$
Lose $20,000..you're ready to kill a mf'er!!
Lose $200,000...we'd all understand exactly where Greg is coming from.

I say all of this to say, the people in this thread that are acting as if Greg is the bad guy would be singing a different tune if they'd lost all of their hard earned money. No matter if it was $20...$2,000 or $200,000. When one loses his money and doesn't get what he pays for, nothing else matters. It's easy for others to come here and ask or say why didn't Greg do this or that. Or did you give Ron a chance to correct this or that. If it was your $200k, would you still be as passive? I highly doubt it. Besides, not that it's super easy, but providing straight panels, a legitimate engine and for the sake of me...a decent wrap aren't what you would call difficult task if you're in this business as business owner.
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2018, 06:12 AM
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Jeff --- TOTALLY AGREE 100% with your post.


Let's rehash the rehashed hash.....


Was this the first time I met Ron and I just picked up a catalog -- pointed to page 119 and ordered a car built? Kinda like ordering off Amazon right? Yeah... NO.

You've bought some parts and tech from him.... over a period of time. Hey! You know what? Me too!

You attended his seminars and learned some stuff. Hey! You know what? Me too!

Do I have lots of friends that have bought parts and tech from him? Oh yeah... several.

Have there been issues with some of that along the way. Yep. No biggie... Sh!t happens. Delays? Sure. So what. Some of the crap around here has been being worked on for years... so a couple/few months is not really a deal breaker.

For about the last 5 years (give or take doesn't matter - it's not weeks - it's not 3 months).... Ron has been paid ($3,000 plus expenses. It's in his catalog - page 400 - for those that are all uptight about discussing money) to be at every track event with me. That's usually 3 or 4 events per year. For this I got great advice - tires and brakes info and service - driving skills coaching - car management services. He took many seconds off my lap times - had my cars driving 100% - and we had fun too! He was part of the track family. Included in all the diners... introduced to all my friends. It was great.

I had him completely re-do all the suspension and brakes and wheels and everything on my '65 Mustang track car. I think with spare wheels and all the stuff - it was $30,000+ (it was more than that but who cares). I considered it a bargain. The improvement was beyond comparison. It made the car so much fun to drive. I considered him a genius!

During all of this - we talked business - we talked about who to do business with and whom I thought would be a PITA to do business with.... He mentored me - I mentored him. We had fun, and we could talk about lots of stuff, because we both like to talk.

When he wanted to develop the brake line -- and needed some help -- I didn't hesitate to be there. In fairness to Ron - I screwed him a little bit by coming down with terminal cancer during this - and because of trying to deal with that and build a new house etc - I didn't get him the money the day after we agreed to do this. It took a few months before I got off my meds etc and then I did what I said I was going to do.... So some of his stuff was probably delayed because of me. So sorry - but dying takes up some of your time. Someone else's sh!t wasn't at the top of my list. We both knew and understood this.

When some friends wanted to expand their subs and suspension offerings -- I pushed a relationship that I thought would be beneficial to all. It did - it was - it is. The product is STELLAR - WORKS - is made and manufactured by an actual manufacturer/production shop in house. It's their product - not his - he was just hired for his expertise and he has a lot of it in certain areas! What did I get out of this? Friends. I'm happy to watch the success. I am on the bottom pushing up. We need great stuff in our little corner of the world. We need great suppliers to bring us great stuff. Makes me happy! In all the years of knowing the manufacturer as personal friends - do you know how many parts and pieces and money I've spent with them? ZERO. Why? I had Ron and he ran my cars and I wasn't building a car etc. My point? I was just helping some mutual friends.

So some of you think you have this special secret sauce relationship because you're a customer, and you've spoken to Ron on the phone a few times. Great! He's a great guy. Knows about a lot of stuff we all think is some kind of "secret" (he uses that a lot).

Fast forward -- big new catalog - lots of pretty parts and stuff.... many pages devoted to "secret sauce" and how many cars have been built and how many races won and on and on. AWESOME -- here we go -- Business is on the upswing and everything is peachy. Couldn't be happier for the guy!

Hey! I have a great idea! Let's build a catalog car and we'll use this as a shining brand new super duper secret sauce example of just what you have to offer! This is going to be so much fun! I needed some fun! BAM! Wired $100K to get started - dates set - choices made - PRI show walk about to pick some parts and do a show and tell. Lots of builders there - we pointed to the good, the bad, the ugly, and talked pricing and quality and blah blah blah.....

Test and Tune day is a complete disaster... the car is the worst looking pile of crap I think I've ever seen. Excuses made and accepted. It isn't our first goat rodeo. No biggie. I've got history with the man. I've got confidence in his skills. I've heard for 5 years all the stories of racing, and disaster, and the recovery, and the winning. I think the car made 3 laps. Well - so what - that's the way this stuff goes sometimes.

The car goes back to the shop - and is supposed to be all fixedededed up and made pertty and she'll be ready to rock next time.

Next time is purposely set so we have a shop to work in (my track side shop) with a lift and tools and tire shop next door etc. We add an extra day for test and tune - so a total of 3 days. Knowing full well this isn't going to fire up and go out and be problem free. Remember the goat? Yeah the goat is well worn = it ain't our first time. Don't be a dickhead and think to yourself -- "well I've had lots of issues with my stuff so what?" At this event -- We're having the exact same issues that killed the first test and tune.... EXACTLY.... and lets add even more issues... Ron is there. The builder is there. We've now added an electronics man - and a mechanic. They've disassembled, and reassembled, this car a couple times.

The "fun" is now not fun.... as I watch the carnival unfold... But I'm excited to at least be able to see what we've created. From a distance the car is just bad to the bone. It sounds healthy. It looks MEAN. It's full of secret sauce. I have a pro driver (thank god)... and before I die - I'm going to witness the magic that's been built. YEAH NO. No magic. Just a crappy looking - embarrassing pile of crap that is known in the paddock as "the one lap Mustang". LOL

At the end of day one (this is really day two of the car history) I told Sutton in no uncertain terms --- if the car doesn't make first call and run all day -- pack your Sh!t and get out of here. OH YEAH I'M FIRED UP BY NOW. My dream is a pile of junk and an extremely embarrassing pile at that.

Well -- the sh!t show continues day two. My buddies that are with me are ready to take them all out back and pound the crap out of them (not literally). They want him fired on the spot. Walk the plank. We even made plans to do that - and drive down to Sonoma and watch the NorCal Shelby Nationals.... rather than watch another day of rinse and repeat clown show and oil wiping and cluster F'n. I resisted that - and I defended him and I held them back.

Did we "win" -- yeah. But what does that really mean?? In NASA TTU -- if you could go out and run ONE LAP and post the fastest time of the day. That's a win. Would you be happy with that win. A little bit. Shows the car has potential -- what it really shows is what a pro driver like Benny Moon can do with a pile of crap. He could go out - warm up - blast two laps - and bring it in for repairs.

That became a "strategy". Clean up in aisle 3!! Thrash - bandaid - clean up - run two laps - repeat.

Day 3 -- same sh!t different day. Another one lap "win". Sorry folks - this isn't winning.... Was to Sutton and crew. Wasn't to the 7 or 8 guys that are witnessing this secret sauce.

So --- to those of you that think I should give him a chance to fix it. Go pound sand.

To those that fail to grasp ALL of the situation with not just my pile, but all the other stories I've heard since.... Just shut the F up and go about your secret sauce filled day.

NOBODY HAS GIVEN MORE THAN ME.

SPENT MORE THAN ME.

DONE MORE FOR HIM THAN ME.

SPENT MORE TIME WITH HIM THAN ME.

I will have the problems fixed - but not on his budget, and not with the clueless people that created all the BS in the first place. If you weren't a part of it - no amount of explanation would suffice.

Last edited by GregWeld; 08-26-2018 at 06:23 AM.
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2018, 02:22 PM
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There is one guy who owns this mess, ONE, and his name isn't Greg; well technically he does own an oily mess but more on that later.

A quick grab of facts from the 70 pages of build thread. Putting things in writing is neat isn't it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
Preston, you are spot on in many ways.

This Wide-Body 70 Fastback Mustang body did not exist before this. But in my 35+ years of racing & building race industry relationships ... I've learned who can do what ... and do it well ... versus those that are full of bulls@#$.


Normally it takes 3-4 months to have an entire "regular" fiberglass body ... shell, doors, front end, hood, scoop, dash, decklid, etc .... built. The error we made was thinking we could build a full custom widened car ... with rocker skirts, flush glass, wicked air dam & hood scoop blended ... in the same time. We didn't. It took 6 months for the shell & the rest will be 7 months.

So it shortened the time we have to build the car to 4 months. Most people would be panic'd. But not my crew. This is old hat to us.


The target is to be running a private test day on track at the end of June. We got this.

Kinda funny, or sad reading that first quote now.

We got this; or not so much; even with a do over a month later.
No mystery on the timeline. No concern either; even time for a trip to Yosemite. Your posts then we're cavalier and Boastful.
Greg wasn't pushing you to the deadline but you were pushing the sales hype of completing the build in that time frame.
It would have been a huge win to pull it off but it was your gamble and you flamed out, so own it.
Seems like you WERE a car builder; what changed? You should be more clear on what you were, what you professed to be and what you actually are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
Some of you may not have realized on our shake down day the car wasn't ready to race or run many laps because the interior tin wasn't sealed & the exhaust wasn't thermal barrier coated.

The cockpit needs to be fully sealed from the engine bay & fuel cell area. We use a 3M Fire Retardant Sealer good up to 2000°.

The Mustang comes apart late this week to go to powder coat. In our Track-Warrior cars like Greg's ... the steel floor, firewall & bulkhead/rear deck sheet metal are welded to the chassis ... and get powder coated along with the chassis & cage assembly. When it goes back together for final assembly, will utilize the 3M Fire Retardant Sealer on every seam under the car, at the firewall & at the rear bulkhead & decklid sheet metal. This prevents C0², smoke, oil, fire, etc from entering into the cockpit.

I'm outlining this important step, because many of you already have, or will, modify the sheet metal in your builds & NEED TO KNOW it's critical to seal it & what to use. It's NOT OK to leave any seam unsealed. It's unsafe.


The car will go back together later this month & get ready to go run the NASA event at Thunderhill Raceway in Willows California on Aug 4-5.

Our driver Benny Moon is super talented, but hasn't been in a real race car is many years, so he'll need to shake off the rust as we work up to speed.
Benny seems to be a great guy. Definitely talented. I'm not sure why Ron put his life at risk over the course of 4 track days on two separate weekends because the cockpit wasn't even close to sealed.

I'm sure a lot of people would miss Benny. Your opinion on sealing, just reminding you of it; it shouldn't be your opinion only when convenient.

It seems the marketing aspect of getting a wrap and powder coat on the car so it would photograph well, even if in person it was somewhat below standard, was priority one.

I don't think it's entirely fair to some of the members of Rons crew who genuinely seem to be good guys, albeit NOT engine builders or mechanics that understood how to go about diagnosing and fixing the oiling issue with the car, that they are being dragged down by Rons ego and mismanagement of this build.

Ron got it partially right in his post about owning the mess he made of this build. He certainly didn't sell his failure as hard as he sells his parts. He certainly didn't accept the responsibility like he accepts praise.

He didn't portray accurately how much he oversold his ability to put together a team and manage a project and how much HE really didn't know about the motor and it's oiling system or dry sump oiling in general. The first day was Friday and the dry sump manufacturer was within driving distance and I'm sure available for a call. It could only be his ego that kept that from happening.

I like to think Ron was a decent guy who was the victim of his own hype and got caught up in a suspension god complex.

Part of it may have been wanting to do the right thing and making commitments he knew he couldn't follow through on. I know that happened to me. Ron didn't steal from me but I mistakenly waited for a piece from him that he should have just said straight up I would need to make,or if I wasn't willing to make, he'd take back the part.

Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with returning a prat that really didn't work and hoped I'd go away.

At the time I thought it was the first scenario. Now I'm leaning towards the second.

In the end HE not only ruined Gregs build but also dragged some guys trying to do the right thing through the mud. I was pretty disappointed in how Ron acted twords Greg but I am just as disappointed about him putting some of his guys in a position where they were in over their head and set up for failure. I don't think they deserve the bad press for Rons BS.

For Christs sake Ron, take responsibility, fall on your sword and be faithful to your guys who genuinely tried to mop up your mess (mainly oil with a hint of Burt wire). Don't drag them down with you.

As one of the people there I had no ill will twords the crew; some of us may have, but honestly it seemed all of us, as hands on guys (+Dave), were just frustrated with the lack of a proper game plan. This shouldn't reflect on most of those people who work hard and can deliver a good product within their own field of specialty. I have a great gear set up in my race car thanks to Boris. The car wasn't total ****, there was some nice work on the car. Personally I just wanted to call time out and give the crew a new play to run rather than watching them repeat the same drill and expect a different result.

Seriously Ron. Take a step back and really address what you are doing wrong. It's not a Frank type of integrity issue but it is an integrity issue; it's an ownership of responsibility integrity issue. Accept it and fix it. Then you have something to offer people.
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  #4  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:28 AM
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Default Caught yet again......

After all the info that had flowed to me regarding “less than stellar parts and services” ...... a friend of our Lat-G community found this.

Same pattern of “marketing” vs facts.


https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/20...n_sutton_1.pdf
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:56 PM
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When you getting your 80g’s back!
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Old 08-29-2018, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter McMahon View Post
When you getting your 80g’s back!


He said he was going to repay me! I'm sure of it!! Everything else he's said has been spot on!

LOL
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Old 08-29-2018, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregWeld View Post
After all the info that had flowed to me regarding “less than stellar parts and services” ...... a friend of our Lat-G community found this.

Same pattern of “marketing” vs facts.


https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/20...n_sutton_1.pdf
Wow!! This thing is getting juicer by the post...I mean episode. It's like a great TV show where you can't wait until next week to see what happens.
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 214Chevelle View Post
Wow!! This thing is getting juicer by the post...I mean episode. It's like a great TV show where you can't wait until next week to see what happens.

You're only seeing about 10% of what I'm working on.... It's going to get MUCH better.... Well.... better depends on which side you're on.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:05 PM
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This “enlightenment” reiterates the reason why Greg brought the issues to light, to begin with. Greg being the standup guy he is, was looking out for his friends here, and potential future “mistakes”. I’m certain that had Greg known then what he knows now, this thread wouldn’t exist.
I’ve seen many shirts, license plates, etc. that read “Friends don’t let Friends Drive Fords”. While I have nothing against fords...I’ve owned several...I do have friends that are worth protecting, and standing up for. So does Greg.
Sounds like we’re still in the shallow end of this mess...
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FETorino View Post
There is one guy who owns this mess, ONE, and his name isn't Greg; well technically he does own an oily mess but more on that later.

A quick grab of facts from the 70 pages of build thread. Putting things in writing is neat isn't it.



Kinda funny, or sad reading that first quote now.

We got this; or not so much; even with a do over a month later.
No mystery on the timeline. No concern either; even time for a trip to Yosemite. Your posts then we're cavalier and Boastful.
Greg wasn't pushing you to the deadline but you were pushing the sales hype of completing the build in that time frame.
It would have been a huge win to pull it off but it was your gamble and you flamed out, so own it.
Seems like you WERE a car builder; what changed? You should be more clear on what you were, what you professed to be and what you actually are.



Benny seems to be a great guy. Definitely talented. I'm not sure why Ron put his life at risk over the course of 4 track days on two separate weekends because the cockpit wasn't even close to sealed.

I'm sure a lot of people would miss Benny. Your opinion on sealing, just reminding you of it; it shouldn't be your opinion only when convenient.

It seems the marketing aspect of getting a wrap and powder coat on the car so it would photograph well, even if in person it was somewhat below standard, was priority one.

I don't think it's entirely fair to some of the members of Rons crew who genuinely seem to be good guys, albeit NOT engine builders or mechanics that understood how to go about diagnosing and fixing the oiling issue with the car, that they are being dragged down by Rons ego and mismanagement of this build.

Ron got it partially right in his post about owning the mess he made of this build. He certainly didn't sell his failure as hard as he sells his parts. He certainly didn't accept the responsibility like he accepts praise.

He didn't portray accurately how much he oversold his ability to put together a team and manage a project and how much HE really didn't know about the motor and it's oiling system or dry sump oiling in general. The first day was Friday and the dry sump manufacturer was within driving distance and I'm sure available for a call. It could only be his ego that kept that from happening.

I like to think Ron was a decent guy who was the victim of his own hype and got caught up in a suspension god complex.

Part of it may have been wanting to do the right thing and making commitments he knew he couldn't follow through on. I know that happened to me. Ron didn't steal from me but I mistakenly waited for a piece from him that he should have just said straight up I would need to make,or if I wasn't willing to make, he'd take back the part.

Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with returning a prat that really didn't work and hoped I'd go away.

At the time I thought it was the first scenario. Now I'm leaning towards the second.

In the end HE not only ruined Gregs build but also dragged some guys trying to do the right thing through the mud. I was pretty disappointed in how Ron acted twords Greg but I am just as disappointed about him putting some of his guys in a position where they were in over their head and set up for failure. I don't think they deserve the bad press for Rons BS.

For Christs sake Ron, take responsibility, fall on your sword and be faithful to your guys who genuinely tried to mop up your mess (mainly oil with a hint of Burt wire). Don't drag them down with you.

As one of the people there I had no ill will twords the crew; some of us may have, but honestly it seemed all of us, as hands on guys (+Dave), were just frustrated with the lack of a proper game plan. This shouldn't reflect on most of those people who work hard and can deliver a good product within their own field of specialty. I have a great gear set up in my race car thanks to Boris. The car wasn't total ****, there was some nice work on the car. Personally I just wanted to call time out and give the crew a new play to run rather than watching them repeat the same drill and expect a different result.

Seriously Ron. Take a step back and really address what you are doing wrong. It's not a Frank type of integrity issue but it is an integrity issue; it's an ownership of responsibility integrity issue. Accept it and fix it. Then you have something to offer people.
If you put as much time and effort on your car projects as you did this post.. man, just think what you could accomplish!
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