Thank you Greg Weld ! Venting time.

[GregWeld]

Here's how I'd fix it ---

Get a ladder

Climb up there with a can of cement

Done


Not worth the time spent on the phone call getting pissed off --- and not worth the time to wait for the newbie idiot that shows up 2 hours late.... and stuffs it back on without glue... so it comes off again next "storm". LOL

[GregWeld]

Mario -- Not putting you on the spot -- but it would help if you detailed the issues -- so maybe people get a better idea of what's gone on -- and to get a clearer picture in their heads of "is it Mario expecting too much vs the builder is shirking their duties".

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

So --- In agreement with Brycen.... I will sum this up for the BUILDERS here and the customers.....

I've had FOUR rather expensive pro-built cars done.

#1 - Steve Frisbee built '32 Ford --- rebuild is the correct description. Was in excess of $200K worth of work.

Car didn't run....

Started and ran my brand new motor with no oil.... had I not been there at the time - they'd have run it til it seized. I heard the lifters rattling and said kill it! They were so stupid they didn't bother to check the dipstick - nor pre-prime the motor after sitting for a year.

Car had no brake lights

Car had to be flat bedded within 2 hours of being driven - because of crap wire job

Car puked coolant and oil from every line made.

They charged me $15K for fixing it. This was all work they had been paid to perform the first time around. Don't even get me started..... If I see him I'd like to punch his fat little face because he's a dick and an idiot.


#2 -- Roy Brizio built '33 -- Car was $283K.... had several minor teething issues. Every one of them fixed correctly -- paint touched up - car detailed and looking brand spanking new every time I took it in for something - or even just asked to store it for a couple months. NO CHARGE EVER -- NO "NOT MY PROBLEM" EVER.

#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.

#4 -- '40 Ford.... We shall see..... my guess is. It fires up - drives 3,000 miles problem free.


MARIO nor I expect perfection from first start up -- what we do expect when stuff is leaking -- or stuff the builder DID -- not a part that broke under warranty -- is to have the issue resolved in a fair and equitable manor. Even if it takes more time - and costs some money.

Neither of us would ask for a "discount" up front before starting a build.... we ask for the things we want - we expect to pay for them - we EXPECT you the builder to be a professional that you represent yourself as -- and to FORESEE issues when you're building this crap. Don't set my engine back in a custom built firewall and not be able to remove the valve covers. Don't give me a car that the brake lines are leaking. Don't give me a car puking oil. Don't give me a car with fuses blowing repeatedly.

These cars cost what brand new Ferraris and Bentleys cost. Be a professional and fix the issues YOU caused - without hesitation, or question, or additional billing.

Nobody that's done this work would expect perfection or a lifetime warranty -- or take issue with a part that takes a dump -- what you expect is for the builder to fix the issues THEY CAUSED.

I'm gonna make GW my spokesmen he's way better at explaining than I am. This is 100% exactly where I'm coming from ! JUST FIX THE THINGS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN CORRECT SINCE THE BEGINNING!!!!!!!!!!! This is all I'm asking!

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

The economy also plays into the problem. When everybody is flourishing attitudes can change. Egos swell and confidence rises when things are going well.

"I'm so busy right now, what do I care about burning a few bridges."

Guess what, the day isn't far off when you won't be that busy and the seeds you've sown will come back to bite you at the worst possible time. Amazing how that always seems to be the way it works out in this life.

Work hard and ALWAYS treat people right and you'll flourish regardless of circumstance. The tortoise and the truth are the best way to build an enterprise that will stand the test of time. You'll sleep well and money won't be an issue.

So true Todd! I live by your last sentence .

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Mario -- Not putting you on the spot -- but it would help if you detailed the issues -- so maybe people get a better idea of what's gone on -- and to get a clearer picture in their heads of "is it Mario expecting too much vs the builder is shirking their duties".

Greg I'm going to put the whole order of events on my original build thread. As well as the ''FIXED'' problems.

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Here's how I'd fix it ---

Get a ladder

Climb up there with a can of cement

Done


Not worth the time spent on the phone call getting pissed off --- and not worth the time to wait for the newbie idiot that shows up 2 hours late.... and stuffs it back on without glue... so it comes off again next "storm". LOL

I didn't get mad about it...yet... Thankfully I have the necessary free time and take it as a personal challenge to correct those that are mistaken.

Just playing devil's advocate here for a second though...how is me fixing this issue myself any different than you just bolting on a second catch can to the dirt missile? We both have the ability to fix the issues that we both shouldn't "have" to be fixing.

It seems like both "issues" can be traced back to a sub contractor not doing something properly and the contractor not quickly taking care of getting it fixed properly.

Only difference I see is I can possibly create a later warranty issue with the roof itself if I fix my issue.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by SSLance

I didn't get mad about it...yet... Thankfully I have the necessary free time and take it as a personal challenge to correct those that are mistaken.

Just playing devil's advocate here for a second though...how is me fixing this issue myself any different than you just bolting on a second catch can to the dirt missile? We both have the ability to fix the issues that we both shouldn't "have" to be fixing.

It seems like both "issues" can be traced back to a sub contractor not doing something properly and the contractor not quickly taking care of getting it fixed properly.

Only difference I see is I can possibly create a later warranty issue with the roof itself if I fix my issue.

My personal view is -- MY TIME IS VALUABLE -- a simple fix is a simple fix...... and to me - while it's someone else's "issue" -- I'm not willing to spend half a F'n day for something that takes 30 minutes total.

I'm not out to rub people's noses in their mistakes --- mistakes happen - everything can have an issue. We're talking about how people resolve issues that is what is important.

In other words --- if I had a brand new car and noticed the radiator hose was dripping coolant -- is that an issue for the builder?? Or should I just take a friggin wrench and 2 minutes of my time and just fix it. I'd just fix it.

If the builder put your window in and it won't open at all despite my clumsy best effort -- then I'm asking the builder to fix it.

[FaBrycation]

what happens if your tail light is "floppy"?









too soon?

[SSLance]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

In other words --- if I had a brand new car and noticed the radiator hose was dripping coolant -- is that an issue for the builder?? Or should I just take a friggin wrench and 2 minutes of my time and just fix it. I'd just fix it.

If the builder put your window in and it won't open at all despite my clumsy best effort -- then I'm asking the builder to fix it.

I get that totally... The thing is though, that line is different for everyone because of "their" personal abilities.

I have a neighbor raising hell with the builder because the sand has washed out between the pavers in their driveway. They either don't think it's their responsibility to replace the sand that has washed out or can't...and are holding the builders feet to the fire to make them fix it under the warranty.

I can (and have already) picked sand up at the hardware store and swept it into the voids in my driveway...just part of being a homeowner in my eyes.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is for everyone to try to be reasonable on both sides and to do their best to take stock of the situation and come to a reasonable solution to the issues that come up.

I'm certain all of the builders reading this thread have had "that customer" that wants the sand in their driveway voids replaced at no charge and they cringe every time the customer calls and I'm certain all of the owners reading this thread have had "that builder" who refuses to fix their blatant screw ups because they are too busy or just don't care.

Whether they are one time deals on either side or standard operating procedure...should also be taken into consideration before final judgement is passed.

[mfain]

After reading these posts I have been doing a little of Don’s “navel gazing” regarding the subject myself. It is clear from multiple posts by qualified experts, including Greg, that you cannot expect a prototype car, especially a true race car contender, to be full up until it has had a great deal of testing, tuning, and refinement. Read Hutton’s post 42, Blake’s post 46, Ironwood’s post 51, and Weld’s post 58, which reads in part: ‘#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.”

Two track sessions is not “LOTS of testing and tuning”. Sutton knew after the NASA event test what needed to be done, and he set about to do it as part of the expected series of “set-up, testing, and tuning”. Sutton’s post after the NASA event reads:

“The car was crazy fast, but it's not correct yet. The RSRT stuff I designed, like the chassis, suspension, brakes, 3rd Member & engine combo all worked well. Some of the things I just buy, also worked good, like the PPG Sequential transmission, QuarterMaster clutch & X-ineering "no lift" shift controller. But the ARE Dry Sump system had serious issues that were frustrating as Fu#$. So was the C&R cooling system. Both of those companies have awesome records of great products. But the systems they recommended that are "currently" on Greg's car did not work well at all. Gotta be fixed.

So back at the office, I'll be working with the cooling experts at C&R & the dry sump gurus at ARE to figure out what's wrong & make whatever changes are needed to Greg's car & future Track-Warriors. After we figure out what changes are needed to the dry sump system tank/plumbing/venting & cooling system, we'll bring Greg's car back to Randy's shop & make those upgrades/corrections. Well before it runs again. Frankly, we'll probably go test just to make sure the cooling system & dry sump vent don't have any issues & work as they should before going to another event.

At this time, the car is NOT plug n' play. Rob, I didn't want you to take me not posting a story with details as "all was great." I did want to announce the pool winner. As you know, it was rough. But we toughed it out & got a couple TTU wins which are really a testament to the car's capabilities & the crews perseverance. But we still have work to do.”

Greg, for reasons of his own and which he has attempted to explain in his posts, elected to terminate Sutton’s involvement and eliminated the opportunity for him to make things right. The car was fast out of the box, due primarily to a solid, well thought out suspension design. It needed finish work and correction of the Sutton-identified issues. Oil venting from high horsepower, dry-sump LS motors, for example, is a continuing problem (just read the Corvette racing or LS forums), but there are known solutions. Wiring and the body needed to be cleaned up – okay…all part of the process.

An individual can terminate a contract or relationship any time he chooses, but to slander the other party or use that as a basis to mount a campaign to wreck his business is just wrong. It’s fair to state your case, but to “imply” that the problem is wide spread without providing adequate supporting documentation in a vindictive effort to harm the other party is unethical.

Ron Sutton has provided a valuable service to this community with his knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge. Many of you who have jumped on the bandwagon have multiple posts on Ron’s suspension stickys asking for free advice. It was a bold step to try to create a business catering to the true performance end of the Pro-touring community. Someone asked why he thought he could compete with Summit or Jegs. Who wants to wade through pages of generic parts to get to real, quality performance parts tailored to our type of project? Have you tried to call Summit and ask for a quote on a very custom sway bar from Speedway Engineering? – How did that work out for you? Ron did that for me, and I got the bar in 3 weeks. He let me order a set of Forgeline wheels under one of his sales events, even though I didn’t have the backspace dimensions worked out yet. A couple of months later, when I got my act together and gave him the info, he ordered the wheels that day at the sales price (and free shipping). I have never had an issue with his service or responsiveness, although sometimes you have to wait for his supplier to provide unique or custom-order parts.

I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.

Pappy