1969 Torino

[intocarss]

Originally Posted by Sieg

I'm located in Springfield, OR.......near nothing.

Originally Posted by gmtech921

Hey I grew up in Eugene. I remember when Springfield really had nothing but a Pulp mill!

And now all that is there is Pulp fiction

[65_LS1_T56]

Ron, one more question on KPI/SAI: is the angle relative to ground plane? In other words, does the KPI change when static camber is changed? Or is it a hard angle directly from the manufacturing geometry of the spindle? So with a particular spindle, the KPI angle would always be the same for that spindle? Just wondering as I am trying to visualize all this. I like your analogy of the wheel turning 90 degrees, it's easier to see whats happening.

What an awesome discussion, thank you.

Oh, more Torino pics Rob!

[65_LS1_T56]

Me so sorry

[Bryce]

Originally Posted by 65_LS1_T56

Ron, one more question on KPI/SAI: is the angle relative to ground plane? In other words, does the KPI change when static camber is changed? Or is it a hard angle directly from the manufacturing geometry of the spindle? So with a particular spindle, the KPI angle would always be the same for that spindle? Just wondering as I am trying to visualize all this. I like your analogy of the wheel turning 90 degrees, it's easier to see whats happening.

What an awesome discussion, thank you.

Oh, more Torino pics Rob!

KPI is spindle dependent not camber dependent.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by 65_LS1_T56

Ron, one more question on KPI/SAI: is the angle relative to ground plane? In other words, does the KPI change when static camber is changed?
I "believe" front end alignment machines show it relative to the ground, which would change with camber. But that's not how we do it, nor how we see it in racing.

Or is it a hard angle directly from the manufacturing geometry of the spindle?
Correct, it is a hard angle that does not change, regardless of camber. It is the angle difference from the wheel hub axis compared to the centerline of both ball joints.

So with a particular spindle, the KPI angle would always be the same for that spindle?
Yes, the KPI stays the same on a spindle, unless you physically modify it.

Modifying the KPI of a spindle is not common for street cars. But it can & has been done with welding up the ball joint holes & re-milling them in a different location. Some racers "cheat" this way in classes where "stock spindles" are required by rules.

Also, there are racing spindles with a removable slug in the top, for the upper ball joint. Different slugs move the upper ball joint location in towards the wheel or out away from the wheel, effectively changing the KPI. They also have removable steering arms where the lower ball joint mounts. To keep the ball joint alignment true to each other, this lower arm is changed too.

I have run this type of adjustable KPI spindle, but don't prefer it. It's fine for testing stuff. But I know what I'm looking for when I order custom spindles & have designed the whole package to work together. There is no need to change it later.

Just wondering as I am trying to visualize all this. I like your analogy of the wheel turning 90 degrees, it's easier to see whats happening.
Cool. I am very visual. So I need to see or at least visualize things working to understand them. I also found using BIG examples is an easier way to learn. Once you're clear on a concept ... you can always imagine the concept to a lesser degree.

What an awesome discussion, thank you.
You're welcome.

Oh, more Torino pics Rob!

I don't think you're jacking the thread. Rob indicated he wants us to have these discussions. (I asked him)

If someone wants to ask specific questions about a different car, then we should start a new thread.

.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by FETorino

Ron

It is enlightening to see the full discussion of KPI/SAI & caster and it's relationship to camber laid out in an easy to digest discussion.

I'm tempted to cut and paste your roll center discussion on here also but maybe I should leave that to you.

Rob that's a good idea.

I'll add in the roll center information after we have fully discussed this topic first.

[Flash68]

Ron,

Since you've entered Rob's world I think some people might actually be scared of this big boned girl.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by Flash68

Ron,

Since you've entered Rob's world I think some people might actually be scared of this big boned girl.

Oh ... I think he was "committed" to making it a mean track car regardless. Maybe I can help him get it there quicker.

.

[intocarss]

Originally Posted by Flash68

Ron,

Since you've entered Rob's world I think some people might actually be scared of this big boned girl.

Fords do need all the help they can get

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

Oh ... I think he was "committed" to making it a mean track car regardless. Maybe I can help him get it there quicker.

.

Again...Fords do need all the help they can get AND CLASS IS IN SESSION WITH Mr RON

HI ROB!!!!!!!

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by intocarss

Fords do need all the help they can get

Again...Fords do need all the help they can get AND CLASS IS IN SESSION WITH Mr RON

HI ROB!!!!!!!

You're funny.

I really enjoy & relate to your signature line ...
"And people who don't know the game ask me why we race. I always reply that it has nothing to do with the racing, what we do is a people thing. The cars are just what we use to measure skills from one day to the next".


It reminds me of when Neil Bonnet was reflecting on his career after he came back from a bad crash & said, "I used to think I was racing against all these people ... until I got perspective & realized I was racing WITH all these people. It's the relationships I value most."

That struck a cord for me after I broke my back in a high speed Kart wreck in 1991 at Sears Point & has been one of my guiding principles since. I want to win ... and I'll work as hard as necessary until I do ... but I value enjoyable relationships more. When I look back on all my racing exploits, it's the great people & the good times I remember & enjoy most.

.