Anyone else seeing an issue with companies going "China" on us?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

you just never know....

[dhutton]

Originally Posted by bdahlg68

Having been to China more times than is reasonable I must say that there is actually very capable sources there. The issue with China sourcing (or really any of Asia) is that it takes an extraordinary amount of effort and oversight to execute. That effort and oversight doesn't end when you find someone that "can" make the part. You have to stay on top of it and be persistent and thorough on each order and each shipment. I believe many companies fail to plan for just how much continued effort there is and because of this, unknowingly over commit to their customers.

Very well said. I have been involved with sourcing manufacturing and design in China (and India, Taiwan, Korea etc) for many years and this is exactly the case. Plenty of capabilities and capacity there, it just has to be properly managed and executed.

Don

[Graham08]

The thing that really scares me about things sourced offshore is the part you can't see. Meaning, you can generally look at a product and see if it's manufactured correctly from a machining, welding, and build quality standpoint, but you're trusting the supplier when it comes to metallurgy and heat treatment. And, many times material "certifications" from offshore are the same copy Xeroxed thousands of times--no actual testing has taken place.

I have experienced this myself with Chinese "4130" tubing. Bending 1-1/2" x 0.058" wall just works with domestic tube. Occasionally the inside of the bend will wrinkle a bit because the wall thickness is right at the point where it's too thin to do without a mandrel. A buddy brought over some Chinese stuff for me to bend, and it got to about 45 degrees and collapsed. I'm not sure exactly what was different, but it obviously wasn't as strong as what I was used to dealing with.

I've started paying more and buying from trusted suppliers to ensure things like 4130 tubing and fasteners are coming from domestic or trusted offshore sources for this reason. By trusted offshore, I mean companies with actual names in western Europe or Taiwan, not generic "China" or "India". Losing a race car because of a fastener or material failure is a hell of a lot more expensive than paying the extra few bucks for the good stuff in the first place.

[kwhizz]

It's going to take a while for the Global Economy to balance out..........Lot's of issues that come into the Blend ..........Government regulations, Highest Corporate Taxes in the World.... Unions, Ambulance Chasing Lawyers going for the Settlement are just a Few.......If you own a business......you will take the path of least resistance......Supply and Demand.......

Ken

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

And to think they got mad at me at pt.com for saying this same thing except saying that they copy even as small a company as PMC

I guess this opinion just isnt the more popular one.

[DavidBoren]

Oh, you can find plenty capable people anywhere you go. And most even partially developed countries have the resources to produce well-made products. I mean, America is still known for the quality of steel we produced 100 years ago, I would think that same technology (100 year old industrial revolution technology) has made its way to China by now. Which means that they should be producing steel at least as good as American steel from 100 years ago, but they aren't.

This isn't a discussion of potential, it's a discussion about the actual poor quality products being produced as a result of outsourcing. Whether it's from piss poor planning, lack of resources or training, it doesn't matter what part of the operation is failing. The result is the same, and that's products of poor quality.

If humanity was worth half a sh!t, we would bring industry and jobs to these countries to help their economies and infrastructure, instead of exploiting them for cheap labor. Then, everywhere would be a developed nation, everyone could be expected to produce equally high quality products, and then you have worldwide trade and commerce between equally developed nations. But no, we are too concerned with imagery lines in the sand, who's diety is better, and who has more shiny things.

And until we can get past that, I think we are stuck with products of dubious origins, made to meet questionable (if existent) quality standards. China should be more than able to produce the exact same quality of products as America, and still do it cheaper, because they don't have environmental protection laws. So factories there don't have to waste money recycling waste. All the cost of not raping the planet is reflected on to the customer, and BRIC, these fastest developing countries that were mentioned earlier, do not abide by any such environmental laws. So they are undercutting the rest of the civilized world, because Europe and America at least try not be so blatant with our disposal of industrial waste, so it costs more for us to produce the same thing.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Originally Posted by Mr.VENGEANCE

And to think they got mad at me at pt.com for saying this same thing except saying that they copy even as small a company as PMC

I guess this opinion just isnt the more popular one.

Going into everyone's for sale thread and bashing a member for selling parts you don't agree with is different then starting a thread like an adult to discuss the topic. There's very few ideas that are truly original.

I think this thread was more along the lines of companies initially starting off selling things made in the USA then slowly outsourcing there product to be made overseas but keeping the "made in the USA" sales pitch without informing customers .

I still don't think it's the companies job to inform the customer of every move they make. It's the customers job to do there own research even if that means calling the manufacturer and asking questions like everyone should. I do it all the time.

[64pontiac]

All very well said comments. It is nice to be able to have an adult conversation, as you have put it. I too agree that there is good and even great stuff that comes out of overseas production. Take a look at most OEM components for vehicles....its all from over there. Here is the key difference - how does the company that is outsourcing CONTROL and OVERSEE the process, as well as the technology that is being put into it? When it comes down to the price of production and that ONLY then it can slip, big time.


Case in point.... something simple like a stereo. Any of the big manufacturers (even aftermarket) have nice clean displays, great graphics, great functionality and features. Compare that to a no name brand that is just bringing out a model to undercut or even compete WITHOUT the QC, they suck. Not even a comparison.

Back to the oil pans (which was not what sparked me to talk about this, but just one of many examples) in the typical small block oil pan selection, I challenge you to show me the difference between the RPC/CFR/ETC pan and the Moroso or Milodon counterpart. There is no difference, so it ended up going the way of china purely for price, and probably in the same plant, same line. I would think there is no one over there keeping an eye on it, nor do they care. IF it went over because the price was more controlled, but they had something more to offer from it other than an overinflated price, then I can understand.

The more complex the product or process, and I can be even more sympathetic to it having to have been sourced out. The sad part is that there are a ton of small companies that will produce a similar part right here, and have a brilliant high quality piece, and somehow they can make it work. It just seems so *ssbackwards to get bigger and better equipped, only to have less hands on with it.

I remember a great example of a retractable ladder rack built proudly in the USA that went on the Shark Tank, and the owner/proprietor flat out refused any offers because they wanted to offshore it. Based on principle, that of not only quality control and pride, but the support of his local town and infrastructure, he said absolutely no way. His numbers worked, he was profitable, and he said why be greedy for an extra few dollars? I met him at SEMA later that year, and he was doing great. Congrats.

Its just a piss off when a company outsources parts to china, loses that source, and then says "no more part available, and we can't find a suitable replacement that doesnt fail". Ok....you went overseas to get it, and your saying that you cant have it reproduced???? by anyone??? Seems weird.


We will never get away from offshore parts, I get it. But there is more than one solution, and more than one source. If said plant isnt producing a part, move on? Especially when your entire business is simply your SKUs....if it was so important to reduce your costs to be able to sell the product, why would you want to just stop selling it and lose the income all together? Especially if it sells like hotcakes?

Anyways.... back to work on home soil! LOL

[68Cuda]

Originally Posted by Graham08

I've started paying more and buying from trusted suppliers to ensure things like 4130 tubing and fasteners are coming from domestic or trusted offshore sources for this reason. By trusted offshore, I mean companies with actual names in western Europe or Taiwan, not generic "China" or "India". Losing a race car because of a fastener or material failure is a hell of a lot more expensive than paying the extra few bucks for the good stuff in the first place.

If you have ANY doubt, ask for a "Mill Certificate" for the material you are buying. Any metal raw material supplier should be able to get it and it is required by customs for anything imported.

[mfain]

They may have "plenty of capability", but their raw materials are pure crap. Do a metallurgical analysis of just about anything that comes from China. It will make you sick. It's just getting hard to find a well made alternative. I put a 250K mile carrier bearing back in my 1 ton rather than putting in the new one in the GM wrapper (made in China, Mainland) that I got from the dealer. Disgusted with the obvious inferior metal. Pitched it in the trash - would have cost more in fuel to take it back. Not to mention what the massive influx of junk at an unrealistically low price is doing to our economy. Wait until there is no longer any manufacturing capability in the good old USA and see what you pay for junk - it will be the only game in town. Yes, you hit a nerve. Maybe losing part of a finger to a Chinese built coil spring compressor that exploded in my hand had some influence on my thought process.

Another short story - went to O'Reilly's on a Sunday to get a rear wheel bearing for a dually (replaced it the next week with a Timken). O'Reilly's good bearing was $26, but they had one for $6.95!!! Imagine the quality. That bearing would be worth more as scrap steel - if it was made out of real steel. The Timken was $68 at Jobber price. Glad to pay it!

Pappy