Front Sub-Frame Comparisons

[Bowtieracing]

Ty,

To explain "European school" is little bit difficult but you get it if you go and take a test drive of BMW M6 and after that jump it to chevy pick up. Then you know. With no offence for chevy or any other.

As Steve said all these new subframes are so new at actual results are hard to get. i am having hard time too to make my mind what to do. My needs are front steer rack , 9,5" wide front wheels. But i dont like "fabbed look" . But i really cant afford 7k DSE frame either. So i think i go with DSE speed 2 kit and BRP r&p kit. But after fabbing and parts i am quite close to 4000$ . And i still keep wondering how much more i could gain on full DSE sub????

And then theres a rear suspension...All the years 4 link suspension has been advertised for drag race purpose and suddenly its for curves So i am really confused too what to do. When i asked this question from DSE i got answer " we have seen improvment on "all numbers" with quadra link" For me - that wont say much.

[Steve Chryssos]

You guys have it easy. When Stielow and I bought our "bolt on" C4 clips back in 1999, we basically got screwed. The difference is that Mark is a suspension engineer, so he immediately went to work on alterations. But I'm a marketing guy. So I looked at the clip and said "C4 A-arms & spindles--cool!" I probably spent $12K over the years in do-overs to make the clip right on the 3rd try (Stielow cautioned me after try #1, but I didn't listen).


Ty,
Anyone of the top three clips will work excellent. Those include, AME, DSE, and 21st. In your case, I would go with the 21st Century clip. Mark will have already have a head start on setup experience thru Steve Rupp's car. In your particular case, that would be the tie-breaker for me. You will not be disappointed.

Bowtieracing,
I have a friend down from Maine, Jake Parrott, who is helping me prep my car for the Bullrun Rally. As the ultimate reimbursement, I let him have back to back test drives in a OE clip car with full DSE Speed 3 upgrades vs. a 21st clip car. This is especially generous, since neither car belongs to me. Numerous other distinctions exist between the two cars, but I assure you that the clip car is light years ahead of the OE car. Jake has also driven my car. The numismatists will be pissed to hear that statement, but it is true nonetheless. If you are close to the idea of purchasing a clip, pull the trigger. You will be thrilled at how easy it is to drive your car fast.

[dhutton]

I've been struggling with this decision for quite some time but haven't been able to pull the trigger due to a relatively tight budget. On ebay someone is now offering a Heidt's subframe complete with brakes for $3700. It is also on their website. Has anyone seen one of these in person at a show? I know it's probably not in the same league as the DSE, AME or 21st Century but I'm interested to hear from anyone who has seen one. Thanks.

[98ssnova]

Hello every body I to have been pondering what front clip to go with I just finished reading the article in Hot Rod. Now I am more confused I was think about sending my clip to ATS but now maybe AME is the way to go also form a budjet standpoint what abour BRP I know that they did the Year One camaro. I think that I need to get an aftermarket clip because of the plain fact that in a year or two I will not be happy with a modded OE clip. Also any body heard or Scott's Hotrods they tig weld the whole sub frame and it has a lifetime guarantee? Please help the confused. I don't mind spending the money just want to get a good piece that is gonna make me happy at the end of the build don't want to be like man I should have spent the extra cash on an aftermarket sub. Rant over sorry

[PTAddict]

Originally Posted by streetfytr68

You guys have it easy. When Stielow and I bought our "bolt on" C4 clips back in 1999, we basically got screwed. The difference is that Mark is a suspension engineer, so he immediately went to work on alterations. But I'm a marketing guy. So I looked at the clip and said "C4 A-arms & spindles--cool!" I probably spent $12K over the years in do-overs to make the clip right on the 3rd try (Stielow cautioned me after try #1, but I didn't listen).

I have one of those C4 bolt on clips myself! And I now have it working pretty well - but not to level I expect from my new DSE.

To Ty's question, I too would go with whatever Mark Magers at LD recommends. The one thing I do think is good about the Morrison is the custom steering arms to allow lower rack position, and therefore lower motor position - but an inch up or down on motor C.G. isn't enough to make a decision on.

On the Heidts clip, I don't know much about it, but given all of the choices out there, here's what I would use as a sort of basic litmus test:
- Can the manufacturer provide data (graphs) of Camber Gain, Bump Steer, Front View Swing Arm, Roll Center, and Side View Swing Arm? If they can't, then it's a crap shoot how well the clip will handle. Bonus: have they done any FEA to determine torsional rigidity of the clip?

On the 4-link handling question, there was quite a thread here about a year ago on 3-link vs. 4-link. Bottom line, from my perspective: 3-link is ultimately a superior design on paper, but both can be engineered to provide excellent results and it depends more on the goals of the designer and the execution than the number of links per se. And to greatly oversimplify, the Quadralink, compared to the LD 3-link, seems to be engineered to give up some handling performance ideals, and adjustability, in order to simplify packaging and installation. But the people who have it seem to love it ...

The European school, way overly simplified again, tends to use stiffer springing and damping with less anti-roll bar. This results a firmer ride for a given amount of roll stiffness, but allows the front/rear wheel pairs more independence, keeps the damping ratios more constant, and reduces pitching and instability over uneven surfaces. Basically, the American school corners flatter, the European school feels more stable and "planted".

And once again, to echo Steve's point, I have to say it's great to be able to make choices between so many good options.

[68protouring454]

there is no doubt, the stock dse prepped speed 3 oe clip went well but you still had to make it turn, while the 21st clip was so much smoother and made you feel the car was planted through out the turn, HUGE difference, i drove the dse speed 3 then directly went to the 21st clip car, same roads
very cool, and told me all i wanted to hear AFTERMARKET CLIP!!!!! IS A MUST
i do not care what the static set up is or the camber curve, the aftermarket front steer clip is so ahead of the oe prepped clip.

[Bowtieracing]

Originally Posted by streetfytr68

Bowtieracing,
I have a friend down from Maine, Jake Parrott, who is helping me prep my car for the Bullrun Rally. As the ultimate reimbursement, I let him have back to back test drives in a OE clip car with full DSE Speed 3 upgrades vs. a 21st clip car. This is especially generous, since neither car belongs to me. Numerous other distinctions exist between the two cars, but I assure you that the clip car is light years ahead of the OE car. Jake has also driven my car. The numismatists will be pissed to hear that statement, but it is true nonetheless. If you are close to the idea of purchasing a clip, pull the trigger. You will be thrilled at how easy it is to drive your car fast.

Hello Steve and thank you again for clear and understanable comments. I am happy to have you hear because not many of us have not had the change to do test with different clips or systems.

Since i will be looking around 3000 usd with parts only to get my clip where i want it the AM and 21st clips are quite close. And i have allready bought the C6 Z06 brakes it makes even more sence.

As important as technical aspects are for me i want certain visual look too. And the AM clip looks somehow little bit "fragile" to me. Yes i 110% sure it is way stronger than anything wich came from factory but if you take look of this picture you know what i mean:
http://www.artmorrison.com/albums/Ca...4399.sized.jpg

And yes the white backroud and un painted frame does tricks to that picture but still i think the inner fender are going to fly away??

Then there is a 21st clip. But did i understand correct it mounts the engine 1" higher than others? I would rather not cut the tunner for T56 and like the idea of lower "point of weight" . Otherwise i like the looks of the 21st frame more. https://lateral-g.net/forums/atta...9&d=1149044409

I believe both clips need some trimmin to innder fenders to look right ?

I am affraid this leads me eventually baying DSE clip

[PTAddict]

Originally Posted by Bowtieracing

Then there is a 21st clip. But did i understand correct it mounts the engine 1" higher than others? I would rather not cut the tunner for T56 and like the idea of lower "point of weight" . Otherwise i like the looks of the 21st frame more.

The comment about the high rack position was based on the observations of another (very reliable) source about a year ago. I would not treat that as definitive information - I would talk to 21st Century directly, and check with with people who have used the clip, like Steve1968LS2 on this forum.

[68protouring454]

Originally Posted by PTAddict

The comment about the high rack position was based on the observations of another (very reliable) source about a year ago. I would not treat that as definitive information - I would talk to 21st Century directly, and check with with people who have used the clip, like Steve1968LS2 on this forum.

if you read steevos post and do a search the 21st DOES raise the motor, i know with a 4l80e no cutting is required just some heat and massaging to install. its a very nice piece and drives even better

[Bowtieracing]

I was so happy with my "master plan" and now i thinking new sub Do you think DSE frame will come cheaper in future?