Thoughts on the FAST Ez-EFI system??

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Since this is clearly Brians meat an potatoes, I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. With that said, there is perfection and damn close. Engines don't require perfection to run well or cars likely wouldn't exist. I'm pretty certain my 850 holley isn't perfect.

I agree Todd. I'm positive he has much more experience and knowledge, and I appreciate his participation on the site. He gets paid for what he knows, and we get some of his knowledge for free, that's good for all of us.

We'll agree to disagree on the definition of "must".

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by camcojb

We'll agree to disagree on the definition of "must".

This is all I was talking about as well!

[Stuart Adams]

Jody

[TurboNova]

Originally Posted by camcojb

First off, your example of a 4.6 Ford with 160# injectors is not something that's seen every day. Yeah, with that large of an injector idle issues are a concern.

I have not had a single idle issue yet doing it my way. I've never had the pulsewidth go "too low" at idle and cause issues. I've never "chased" the tuning because of this.

You seem to take it personally that I have made it work well in a way different than you think it should be. You've given good advice, I see the purpose of referencing the regulator. But with a rear mounted regulator it's just one more line to run, plus I'm not sure there may not be an issue with the length of the line. Couldn't see an issue with the forced induction builds and the line length, but never tried on N/A.

I don't try to hand out bad info, I simply try to help with things that work for me. I have no problem with your view and would recommend people follow your advice, you're the pro. What I don't agree with is you keep saying that the reference line must be used. That's where you lose credibility. It's obvious that it isn't required or none of my cars or any of the other examples in this thread would run. I mean, they wouldn't even start up according to the "must" claim. That's my point.

I have tuned 4 ~ 4.6 Fords this week that had that same combo. You are chasing the fuel curve weather you want to believe it or not.. that is fine. Take it personally... no not at all, you just don't seem to get it. One more line to run is no big deal... it's just cheap vac line... line length shouldn't matter.

It's not my credibility... it would be yours to keep arguing that it really does not matter. If you really understood what was happening you would say... I will always do it that way now that I understand. To tell people bad information that is does not matter or everyone here has always done it this way and it worked isn't a good argument.

I never said an engine wouldn't start.. or run... just not "right" most EZ EFI systems wont run very well at all. The real problem is where you try to lean out the idle down around the 1.2-1.4 ms of PW and you keep getting a rich condition you can't get out.

Like I said, you can machine an engine with .008 piston to wall clearance.. would it run.. sure.. but would you do that? No.. So if you now it is better and the proper way to run the regulator with the vac line then why wouldn’t you?

Lets face it the industry is full of people who see one thing and copy everyone else who is doing it that way. If the points leader uses brand X oil then it must be the best stuff out there. If this guy uses these gaskets then everyone should use that gasket. There is more bad info out there than there is good especially in the EFI world. My day usually consists of helping people tune their stuff after 5 other guys just took their money and gave them the tune out of the XFI folder. Part of why I have done well as a EFI tuner is I do a lot of dyno testing trying different stuff and have access to some really cool datalogging stuff most people don't even get to play with ever. I try to help out on a few boards and offer advise on what works and what does not. If I see something people don't get or understand then I try to help them in the right direction at least. This topic is something that I cover in every EFI101 class I teach and usually get blank stares from the students that say... wow everyone else does not do that. When I draw a picture on the board... most get it. There is lots of other stuff like, adding fuel stops detonation.... fuel is power... lots of stuff we debunk on the chassis dyno live at our classes.

Not taking anything personally and not talking down to anyone just trying to educate some bad info.

[TurboNova]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Brian --

I'm calling Brizio to have him hook up a vac line to the pressure regulator.... Well -- maybe not -- this is something I'd rather do myself. When the car was built - the line was run - just not used - so is a simple deal now. SMART HUH?!

Just 'cause the next time I see you (SEMA) I can say I did it right.... ">)


It all makes "sense" --- but on a little crate motor... I'm doubting it changes much... but then again -- I'm TOTALLY ready, willing, and able, to learn. You'll never hear me say that I know it all.

If I see you at SEMA the first beer is on me... you will see me at the FAST boost a lot after Wednesday. I will be up in your area the week before that working on a LS1 V12 with Motec.

[TurboNova]

Originally Posted by camcojb

I understand all that, was simply asking a question. You may not mean to but you come across as talking down to people if they question you, and for someone who instructs that's not good. Just some feedback, take it as you wish.

Don't mean to at all. Typing can be taken very differently than what is meant. I am open for questions, that is why I keep answering.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by TurboNova

I have tuned 4 ~ 4.6 Fords this week that had that same combo. You are chasing the fuel curve weather you want to believe it or not.. that is fine.

ok, I understand you may tune (4) 4.6 Mod motors with 160# injectors on a regular basis, but come on............ I doubt there's many here that run that size injector. Yes, I already said when you're dealing with something like that you can have idle issues and lowering the fuel pressure with the reference line would be beneficial. I also said that I was mostly talking about EFI in general, the systems that are end-user adjustable. However I tried with and without the reference line on the EZ EFI system and it adjusted for the difference in a few seconds, and after that ran exactly the same. As far as chasing the fuel curve, I start with a base fuel map with BS3, FAST, Accel, etc. that will need everything changed anyway. Even the ones that take engine info to build a base map are off a lot, some so far they won't even start and idle. Simple datalogging shows exactly where and how much you're off, and with some simple math you adjust the VE or fuel map numbers (or maf curve or? depending on the tuning system and EMC) and datalog again.

Originally Posted by TurboNova

I never said an engine wouldn't start.. or run... just not "right" most EZ EFI systems wont run very well at all. [/B]The real problem is where you try to lean out the idle down around the 1.2-1.4 ms of PW and you keep getting a rich condition you can't get out.

not true. You kept saying you "must" run the reference line. Even when I gave you the option to admit that "must" is not correct you clung to it. "Must" means there is no option, it will not work. That's why we've been going in circles here. But then you said if you disconnected the reference on an EZ EFI that it would have to learn the new fuel map which it does; so maybe it's not a "must". As I found out with the one I worked on it ran great at idle with or without that line. You also mentioned many tuners still don't use one; their cars must run I would assume.

I've been doing my own tuning since 1994 when I had a program to burn my own proms. I have done many N/A cars with and without reference lines. Not a single one had an idle issue or tuning issue. I have seen countless other cars in that period of time that didn't use one and ran fine. I am not challenging your knowledge. I can see why you want the reference line there. It makes sense to me and I'll start using them again on the N/A stuff. The only reason I didn't use them is because of the rear mounted regulators I use, and I was told by a tuner that the length of line would cause tuning issues. So thank you for telling me it won't. The only part that we disagreed on was that it is required on all EFI systems. If you would have said it's the best way to go and here's why, it can help with the EZ EFI if you have a fat idle and can't get rid of it, or if you're dealing with a large injector and having idle issues this can help we would have had no disagreement.

My only point was on the "must" part of what you were saying. Hopefully you get what I'm saying, because I really can't explain it any better. Thanks again for your time and info, it is appreciated.

[TurboNova]

I say "Must" because it is the right way to do it for no other reason. I still think even after all the posts you still don't get it. It's not lowering the pressure but more the reason is the pressure differential between the intake and injector remain the same, no matter if you are in boost, vac or no vac.

Do you get that part?

Then the ecu just tunes the actual fuel curve and not the fuel curve and the pressure differential too. This gives the ecu a better ability to tune at the lower PW for any injector size.

If line length was an issue then your rear mounted regulator wouldn't work under boost. The long line will make the change slower but it will still work just the same.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by TurboNova

I say "Must" because it is the right way to do it for no other reason. I still think even after all the posts you still don't get it. It's not lowering the pressure but more the reason is the pressure differential between the intake and injector remain the same, no matter if you are in boost, vac or no vac.

Do you get that part?

Then the ecu just tunes the actual fuel curve and not the fuel curve and the pressure differential too. This gives the ecu a better ability to tune at the lower PW for any injector size.

If line length was an issue then your rear mounted regulator wouldn't work under boost. The long line will make the change slower but it will still work just the same.

I get it and I give up..............

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by camcojb

I get it and I give up..............

Go Steelers! How's that for agreeable Jody?