Ok Builders, I need some input... (pics)

[Mick Mc]

Originally Posted by chicane

Normal rate: $75 an hour

You want it tomorrow: $100

You want it today: $150 an hour

You want it when !?!! : $!?!! an hour


If a client wants exclusivity... the client will have to pay the exclusivity tax.

BTW... nice work. The late model tunnel idea gets props. Kudos

I totally disagree with changing the shop rate to have it done faster.

The customer wil not get twice as much work for twice as much pay and you can't work twice as fast. In this case dollars does not equal speed.

If the problem is that the car is not getting worked on, thats one problem.
If the problem is that the customer can only afford 2400 a month (44k divided by 18 months) thats another problem.
If the customer is just impatient and can afford it then 65 per hour, times 40 hours per week, times four weeks per month equals the of the labor bill per month to have the car done. $10400, Can the customer afford this bill?

But which is it? Money or time?

If the customer just can't understand why it takes so long to build things
1. He can't understand HOW things take so long to build and complete.
or
2. He can't afford for you to hire more help to make the job go faster.You could be billing him $20800 per month for two guys working on the car.


It sounds like the customer can't understand why building a car takes SO MUCH TIME. If this is correct you have to ask
1. Can I make the customer understand why it takes so long to build.
2. Can I (Paul) build the car any faster? Why am I not working on the car 40 hours a week. If the customer can pay more for more hours of work and I do have more hours of work to work on the car.

It really sounds like the customer can't understand WHY it is taking so long.
Which means to me he can't understand why it takes so long for certain tasks.
This leads to client education.
Is the client getting a very detailed bill?
Is the client getting alot of pictures?
Is the client stopping by the shop weekly or monthly so you can go over the progress?

If the client just can't understand why it takes so long to weld up a panel and make alignment changes you are going to have problems in the future.
In the future I mean if he thinks it should take a couple of hours to (for instance) wire the car and it takes three or four days to complete he's going to hit the roof.

You know the customer better than we do, but
1. figure out if the client can understand how long things really take to build and complete. Is this a time issue or a budget problem or is he impatient.

2. Maybe its time to let this project go and avoid the problems that are going to get worse as the project nears completion and the dollars escalate and the visual 'look what we got done' diminishes.





Mick


Paul, good having dinner with you at SEMA, (next time not Italian) we'll have to do it again next year.

[svp]

Mick, The problem I think is that he just doesn't "get it" when it comes to what it takes. This is frustrating at a point when you explain it to him and he watches first hand what is involved yet he still just doesn't seem to get it. We have even showed him other projects online and followed the timeline where something like the build Reenmachine did took from painted to finish (reassembly) was 2 1/2 years. I don't know if he just doesn't get it or refuses to let it sink in. I allow him to come to the shop one day a week and get his hands dirty...hoping things sink in but in the end I can't think that it is anymore than just impatience....and I don't think it is intentional but maybe just the way he is. Funny thing is that I have another of his cars in the shop that he bought just getting it roadworthy and I am dying to get it out of here but he just isn't in a rush on that car(which he could be driving...granted it's just a stock Mustang).

We've been over the budget thing with him....originally he wanted a basic Shelby clone but then as was mentioned earlier started changing things. I've explained to him that you can't suddenly put Granite countertops in a house you are building and expect the cost to remain the same as Formica. The cost usually has not been an issue but once before when things were tight he suddenly started in on the cost....I sat down with him and we had a talk and he apologized and said he was that way because things were tight. Communication is key and we keep that door open all the time. I think one of the problems aside from his impatience is just the way he comes across to Jason....rule of thumb is that you don't want to annoy the guy cooking your dinner and you don't want to annoy the guy building your car....enthusiasm for the meal or build is going to be reduced if it is associated with something that annoys you. I think Jason is trying to find a nice way to ask him to just leave him alone and let him build and his asking for input here is because he wants to make sure he isn't out of line with his thinking before talking with him. There is going to be no problem having this project finished for SEMA but trying to finish it for a Mustang show next month is just unreasonable really.

and This year yes, we have to definitely get together again....we had a great time! This time I am booking a hotel that is more convenient!

[Vegas69]

Guy may be a pain in the aise but he let you rebuild that turd and spent 60k on a shell. Has to be a few cards short of a full deck. He's definitely up to his eye balls on the project. I would never get that deep into a car...ever.

[96z28ss]

what I'd like to know is what does a shop like Foose or Troy charge when its crunch time to get a car ready for a show and there are 5 guys working on the car 6 or 7 days a week? Is it shop rate times 5? That could get outrageous. Is that why cars stay at there shop months after the car is revealed so the owner can catch up and make payments?

[TreySmith]

This happens ALOT with early mustangs. I would never EVER buy a restored mustang coupe..

[svp]

Originally Posted by TreySmith

This happens ALOT with early mustangs. I would never EVER buy a restored mustang coupe..

This was a learning experience for everyone in that aspect...think about how many cars that even cross Barrett Jackson that sell for a lot of money are just thrown together cover up jobs. There is a guy here south of Birmingham that bought a '68 Shelby "recreation" at BJ for $60Kish....later when he got to looking at it he noticed "shapes" in the floor pan...pulled the carpet and saw matching "shapes" on the top as well...turns out the floors had a LOT of small riveted patches put in and then had bedliner sprayed on the top and bottom of the floors to cover it up.

At this point I'd rather just buy a pile of junk to start with...at least you know what you have and anything good is a bonus.

The '69 Fastback we have here was sold as a 351 powered GT and the inspector noted that...the inspector even wrote down that the suspension had been "rebuilt" when in fact it was all original except for the cut and clamped front springs(see pic)....the list is HUGE on things that were obvious on this car that were problems and it was a 302 under the hood and the gas cap was from a '68...that's where he got the GT part. Unfortunately the customer was not well informed on Mustangs and when the finance company told him that they required an "inspection" and that he had to pay $200 for it he figured it was going to actually get "inspected"....I could have done a better inspection driving by at 55mph! When he confronted the finance compnay their response was "Well, we just require them to verify the car is actually there"....really sad.

[TreySmith]

I didn't read any of it but, $75 for 100 hours over a year, or $150 for 100 hours over... well.. 100 hours. I can see why there is a price difference.

It works this way with EVERYTHING. If you want it NOW, expect to pay MORE.

[Blackdog714]

Honestly, if his changing things at the last minute is adding time and expense that he cannot see later on, I'd start having him sign and date Change Order notes that give a realistic time addition and cost the change will add. That way when it comes time to pay up, if he balks, you have a stack of docs to back up EVERYTHING you've done.

If it goes to court (no one wants to think about that, but it is reality) you don't want to be on the short end of the stick.

In a court of law, he who documents the most, wins...

[sacarguy]

Well for one there comes a point where you realy should tell your customer .. JUST BUY SOMETHING MORE SOLID...

his time will be saved your time will be saved to many shops want to just run that labor bill up fixing whatever they have to when the customer would be better served by being told the simple truth.

Also far to many shops take in multiple cars when they simply can not work on them..

i see it every day a shop has two guys < a chasis shop for example > and they got three cars there already needing work.

a fourth guy shows up and they say sure I can do it just to get the job in there.. then so they can collect money from each person they do a little on one car then a little on the other then a little on the other etc etc.

a simple rule can stop all this..

DON"T take in work that 1 the customer cant pay for you to work continualy on unless the customer specificly understands the project will take extreme amounts of time.

and 2 dont take in another car if you got a car a customer who will pay you to finish by working non stop on it and wants to.

I am about to finish a full frame off resto mod including paint etc on a car and i have a total of 5 weeks invested so far in the car and i only have me and two employess one of wich is just a shop errand runner.

I mean soda blasted to bare metal, every nut and bolt replaced, a new engine built, full vete brakes, powder coated suspension, and rear end, and sub frame, as well as a new transmission, and full reproduction interior, custom stereo, covans dash, etc etc there is nothing left of the old car except the floor and the rear half.. new trunk floor but other wise non rusted car.

The total turn around by time im done painting the car will have been 6 or 7 weeks and ill make as much or most likely more in that time as i would have trying to take multiple cars a little at a time and without the headache of complaining customers over time taken, or having to track multiple builds etc etc.
I understand this is not the same situation with all the custom work you have done you simply need to tell people either you are going to have to give me xx per week so i can work on your car solid or you will have to just wait and have it done as it can be done.

as hard as it may be for some of the smaller shops to do you also some times you just have to say no i cant do it right now.

[96z28ss]

Originally Posted by sacarguy

Well for one there comes a point where you realy should tell your customer .. JUST BUY SOMETHING MORE SOLID...

his time will be saved your time will be saved to many shops want to just run that labor bill up fixing whatever they have to when the customer would be better served by being told the simple truth.

Also far to many shops take in multiple cars when they simply can not work on them..

i see it every day a shop has two guys < a chasis shop for example > and they got three cars there already needing work.

a fourth guy shows up and they say sure I can do it just to get the job in there.. then so they can collect money from each person they do a little on one car then a little on the other then a little on the other etc etc.

a simple rule can stop all this..

DON"T take in work that 1 the customer cant pay for you to work continualy on unless the customer specificly understands the project will take extreme amounts of time.

and 2 dont take in another car if you got a car a customer who will pay you to finish by working non stop on it and wants to.

I am about to finish a full frame off resto mod including paint etc on a car and i have a total of 5 weeks invested so far in the car and i only have me and two employess one of wich is just a shop errand runner.

I mean soda blasted to bare metal, every nut and bolt replaced, a new engine built, full vete brakes, powder coated suspension, and rear end, and sub frame, as well as a new transmission, and full reproduction interior, custom stereo, covans dash, etc etc there is nothing left of the old car except the floor and the rear half.. new trunk floor but other wise non rusted car.

The total turn around by time im done painting the car will have been 6 or 7 weeks and ill make as much or most likely more in that time as i would have trying to take multiple cars a little at a time and without the headache of complaining customers over time taken, or having to track multiple builds etc etc.
I understand this is not the same situation with all the custom work you have done you simply need to tell people either you are going to have to give me xx per week so i can work on your car solid or you will have to just wait and have it done as it can be done.

as hard as it may be for some of the smaller shops to do you also some times you just have to say no i cant do it right now.

Okay so you have 2 guys working on the car or just one guy?