Save GM

[camaro2nv]

I keep on hearing about how we cant afford for GM to fall. GM talks about all the suppliers they use ect ect. To me it says that the other two companies will do better. Yes its one less choice but the other two will pick up the slack. I must be the only one seeing this or Im missing something.

[Tony_SS]

Originally Posted by TonyL

I hate to see the not so big three fall too. But I cannot wait to see what great American company rises from their ashes. (amc?) That company will be truly awesome, will be unfettered by all the mistakes of the old auto companies, and will give the US an auto industry to be proud of again.

I wouldn't count on it being American owned though... hopefully I'm wrong.

[Flash68]

Originally Posted by Damn True

I'm opposed to any form of loan to the big 2.5 that does not ensure massive restructuring of their Union contracts. The model they are operating under is not sustainable.

Absofrickinglutely.

And I watched some of the testimony on CNBC the other day and I believe it was Chris Dodd who said he isn't sure if we really need all 3 automakers to stay in business. That is a good question and and the answer may very well be no.

The US autos may have been making better cars lately, but they are still way behind in the perception of most people that their stuff is inferior - I don't care about your JD Power ratings. The foreign cars are good cars and the US has been playing catch-up for years. Now add the ridiculous UAW contracts and there's a formula for disaster.

And for those that are comparing this proposed bailout to that of AIG, the Investment Banks, etc. - stop. Not even in the same ballpark. The financial system does not require cars at the end of the day. I think they will get bailed out, but I don't like it. Sure it would hurt if these 3 fail, but it's just another of the very big current problems going on right now. It sucks that any bailouts happened, but the financials absolutely needed it for our system to remain intact. And it's barely remaining intact as it is!

We are in for a pretty big mess these next few years...... Hang on.

[Flash68]

Originally Posted by rich-allen

Has anyone noticed the UAW hasn't come out to play? No big speech's, threats.. Hell, they don't have a word to say!
IMO, the UAW broke the back of the US auto industry years ago but were just finding out how bad it's been because of the home mortgage crisis.

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be worng
Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.

I employee 34 men and women. Most of which belong to the Ironworker's Union. The average employee gets $34 on the check but I pay $83.21 per hour for those wages and the benefit package.

Non Union workers in the same trade make an average $18- $30.00 and generally receive some sort of medical from their employer.

This doesn't negate the fact the retired workers planned their lives around having that pension plan later on.
Do they deserve a $7k a month retirement package? LOL... I let you be the judge.



This is a huge mess and I don't feel like paying for someone Else's mistakes.
I didn't agree with the other companies getting bailed out either. If the country has to go into a recession for a year or so then that's what it has to do.

This country was founded on free markets, not government intervention.

I'm sorry if that bothers anyone, that's just my opinion.
I still love you.


Rich

Could not agree more with you, Rich.

[trapin]

Originally Posted by rich-allen

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be wrong. Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.

Your logic is backwards. In all the years I've worked for GM I have had pension payments deducted from my paycheck (this was when I was not in a salaried union). Those deductions have always been there so yes, I have PAID INTO IT, even when there wasn't some union contract calling the shots for me. So I am entitled to "something" when I go. Also, I am not going to get health insurance when I retire due to my hire-in date and crazy as it might seem...I agree with that. Why the hell should a company be responsible for someone's health care when that person no longer works for them? Geez if we're going to go that far what else can we do for you during your retirement? How about pay for your internet too? Your cable? Maybe we can pick up your phone tab and water bill for ya while we're at it. Gimmie a break.

Much love.

[XcYZ]

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

[brans72]

guess we need to ask our goverment on that note!

[rich-allen]

Originally Posted by trapin

Your logic is backwards. In all the years I've worked for GM I have had pension payments deducted from my paycheck (this was when I was not in a salaried union). Those deductions have always been there so yes, I have PAID INTO IT, even when there wasn't some union contract calling the shots for me. So I am entitled to "something" when I go. Also, I am not going to get health insurance when I retire due to my hire-in date and crazy as it might seem...I agree with that. Why the hell should a company be responsible for someone's health care when that person no longer works for them? Geez if we're going to go that far what else can we do for you during your retirement? How about pay for your internet too? Your cable? Maybe we can pick up your phone tab and water bill for ya while we're at it. Gimmie a break.

Much love.

Tony,

I understand your frustration totally. It's not your fault a handful of people ran this American icon into the ground.

My opinion is from first hand experience. I've signed on to 3 of these union contracts myself and I've written checks to those benefit programs totaling over $1M this year alone.
Please don't misconstrued my statements for being anything other than an outside opinion. It's hard to understand when you stand on the other side of the wall.
It bothers me that you have to go through this Tony. The guys at Lateral-G have been great to me and I consider everyone here like a big family, it hurts to see you in this situation.


Respectfully,

Rich Allen

[BRIAN]

The whole jet thing was just a bit out of control. I agree that they should show that reductions come at the top but how many ran at lunch time to have the free catered lunch when the US Govt is in deep financial trouble?? I saw a lot of $500 and up suits also so should they have showed up in sweats???

The problem is they did not show up with a plan. They did nothing to show how they were goin to change their business to assure a return on our investment. The mistake they made was going in there like it was a bank loan and it isn't. Heck, Ford pretty much said they really didn't even need the money and only wanted the left over $3billion to be saved for them in the future.

As important as it is to us there is the other 75% of Americans who just look at them as another business and they should be treated as such. The made a great point as to where does the handouts stop?? What Industry is next.

There is no way all three will survive if one goes down. At least 2 will go and probably the other will be bought or divided up. The suppliers can't take that large of a loss.


I think the union deal is just been beat to death. How anybody can dispute that the UAW in the past got out of control in their demands which they got because of threats to shut down production I am lost. Skilled labor should be rewarded. Unskilled labor should be treated fairly but not payed more than 1st year attorneys. If I do not like my job I leave and better myself to get a better job. I do not continue doing the same exact same thing and demand higher wages and threaten the Co.

Yes you should have extended coverages but what you are not getting is they are paying so much out to past employees it can't be extended to you. You are also being beat out of a whole bunch of stuff because of the greedy guy who came before you. You are paying for it more than me so if you are ok with it I guess you have a plan when you hit 65. I applaud your loyalty but you have to see that not entirely to blame it is part of the cause.

Once again how many took action and wrote a letter or email to back the Co's???? That is why there was no vote and they are screwed. NO VOICE NO REPRESENTATION!!! Don't blame the unions and CEO's blame yourself!!

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by XcYZ

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, and I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody