Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

455+ CI (with mods) - figure $6K - $8K or so for a good reliable build (with carb, not EFI) at the power levels you're talking about
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread) - Figure $6.5K plus labor
Mini Tubs - Probably $2K (including third party labor)
335 tires & Wheels - Anywhere from $3K to $5K
Like to have the DSE sub - Another $7K or so
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc. - Like Recaros? Figure another $2.5K

So I make it about $29K before body work, paint, powder coating, interior, sound and heat insulation, gauges, HVAC, radio, electrical, engine accessories, headers and exhaust, clutch, fuel system, brakes, engine cooling, transmission, subframe connectors, and all of the other small bits (weather stripping, trim, emblems, etc.).

Your $50K budget is toast already.

To give you some idea, I'm building a '68 Camaro with aftermarket subframe and rear suspension, nice (but not custom) interior, really good seats, BUDGET paint, budget wheels, a GMPP 376/480 engine and so on, and I'll have about $80K - $90K in the car, not including the cost of the car. I've done all the work to the car except media blasting, rust repair and paint and body, so there's very little labor in that number. I have all of the major components sitting here already and I'm in the process of doing final assembly, yet I still find myself ordering $500 worth of stuff from here and $500 worth of stuff from there.

A counter example. I have my "driver" '68 Camaro with stock subframe, stock control arms, Guldstrand mod, SBC, T56, leaf springs, 10 bolt rear and C5 Corvette wheels on adapters. I track the car, take it on multi-thousand mile summer trips, play in the local mountains, etc. It would cost less than a third of what the '68 I'm building will cost to duplicate the "driver" but it's still a fun car that gets lots of comments.

This is a very expensive hobby, and can get totally out of control if you're not careful. So I urge you, as everyone else already has, to sit down and figure out what you want to do, and what it will cost; then double it and that'll be a decent estimate of what it will cost. When that number stuns you, start paring your project and figuring out what's really important and what's not. You may find that a modest build will do everything you want, including being affordable and a project you can actually complete.

I understand it can be very expensive and is very expensive to build a car. I have researched the prices on the item's I would like to have and they are not cheap. I know everything adds up even the small parts. A while back my builder asked me what I wanted out of my car and what parts I had in mind (engine, rear end, suspension, etc.) He said Ron you know you are talking about a $75 to $80K car. My answer above was $50 PLUS depending on which way I go with certain parts such as an after market sub or use of my stock sub, a somewhat stock/modified 455 or a heavy modified motor, high end wheels or cool budget wheels, etc.

Is it possible to have a plan A with all the parts and upgrades I want and then waver with a plan B with only the parts needed to get me up and running? Or do I need to stick with one or the other? I can build the car I want but it will take me a few extra years to complete it.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms

I would not mess with the Richmond. I would do TKO600, T56 Magnum, We will have the New Mcloeds in early spring. But no Richmond.

If $50k is our number, we are going to need to trim a few things. A little project planning would go a long way for you.

Let me know if I can be of any help

Thanks Frank for your Richmond opinion. Looks like TREMEC is the way to go.

$50K PLUS is the low end of the build. And yes I need to set down and put my thoughts and prices on paper. A high end build is not out of my reach (it would just take me longer to build) but it also may not be the right way to go.

Are you able to get certain parts at better prices?

Thanks.

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

Thanks Frank for your Richmond opinion. Looks like TREMEC is the way to go.

$50K PLUS is the low end of the build. And yes I need to set down and put my thoughts and prices on paper. A high end build is not out of my reach (it would just take me longer to build) but it also may not be the right way to go.

Are you able to get certain parts at better prices?

Thanks.

build something that you can afford to do in a reasonable time frame. You don't want to do a long term proiject, too easy to lose interest, constantly changing directions as new things come to the market, plus even though it's cool and modern when designed could be dated by the time it's done.

Build a car that fits the budget and make further changes as money allows. You can actually plan it this way so you're not buying everything twice...........

Jody

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Well.... I'm glad you guys jumped in here on this "budget vs wish list" -- 'cause when I saw it - I said to myself.... "Self!... and Self says to me... Greg!... the list of mods and the list of money don't match...

Ron --- I'm being "funny" here - but it's not funny of course. Cars are like remodeling a house... you make a wish list ... get some "bids" -- then tear into the job. The wife then says -- Well... as long as we're here we might as well do X and X... to which you agree - and then you add - well if we're going to do X and X then I want to do Y and Z... and then the builders budget has change order charges - and you start with the cost overruns. It's why people hate remodel jobs. Personally, I absolutely LOVE remodeling houses - because I don't care what it costs and normally don't even ask for a bid - I just say "this is what I want - is this good or can we do it better"? "What else should we do to make it killer?"

Many of the cars on here - are of the later... in other words - they're exercises in "how do I want it done? Period". "Is it done yet?" LOL

I agree with Frank and Mc - that said - you'll have to do some serious soul searching and figure out what you're going to be willing to sacrifice to the budget god. You can build your car with your budget... but not with the list you tossed out there. If it was me... I'd skip the:

DSE clip and go with Tubular control arms New springs and good shocks
add a sway bar

If the car was a big block - you already have a good rear end? If not - go with a 12 bolt - new leaf springs - good shocks - urethane bushings etc and maybe add some cal tracs

If you have a bb pontiac - just give it a good top quality rebuild - a decent cam -- and maybe for driveability - toss on the FAST EZ EFI - some headers - nice 2 1/2" exhaust.

If you don't have the bb - then just splurge and order a MILDLY built 500 or LESS BB Pontiac - and use the difference for the FAST EZ EFI and headers and Vintage Air or similar serpentine belt set up.

ADD if it doesn't have it already - A/C -- all modern builds should have A/C... it makes the wife want to go - it makes your life nicer - and it increases the value of the car and build. It's easy to add now - and a bitch to add later.

Do a Tremec overdrive transmission - don't cut this corner.

Do disc brakes all the way around. They don't have to be mondo size - and they don't have to be Brembo etc - there are lots of great retro kits out there that will get this car stopped in plenty of time and far better than it did when new.

Do a nice single stage paint job - spend more money on PREP than on paint... the most expensive paint on a poorly prepped body is a total waste! A well prepped laser straight body - with a decent paint job on it is killer - pay more attention to the details of body fitment - door gaps - trunk gaps etc... that is what makes a "quality" car.

DO THE DSE mini tubs... skip this part now - and forever be sorry. With the mini tubs installed - you can run a nice fat tire - and nice looking wheel with modern sizing. To me - this is like the difference between sinks and carpet - you can replace the carpet relatively simply - so no point in spending huge money on it - it gets dirty and dated and is cheap and easy to replace... but how many people do you know rip out their sinks and faucets? So put the money into the stuff you don't "replace"... a hardwood floor is NOT a replacement item - paint on the walls is.

Do the "STRUCTURE" - mini tubs - Engine - Transmission - Rear end - paint and body work. You don't go back to redo these items. Suspension - is a "weekend" project - Brakes are weekend projects - Interiors can be "modified" as money is available... so my advice is - think about what can't be "undone" and redone... if you have to have items hit the cutting room floor. Infrastructure is (to me) - motor/headers - cooling system - steering components (ie - power or rack vs stock etc)... tubs - body - fit and finish - transmission - rear end "housing and axles and gears".

Weekend projects are intake manifolds - carbs - plug wires - valve covers - any and all "dress up" items... not the INTERNALS. Get the suspension "right" - you can upgrade the brakes from a CPP kit to Wilwoods or something like that LATER... Do the dash and it's wiring etc NOW - this is a mess trying to go back and hack it later... Do the Dynamat NOW - you can add electric windows later...

Just "talking here" -- think of it like we were hanging in the garage and blabbing about what you want to do with YOUR car...

Great advise Greg. I agree with you about doing the structure items, tubs, motor, rear end, transmission (TKO of course) paint and body. With these areas I do not want to have to go backwards and redo. An after market sub would be nice but not necessary. Is it possible to get the killer stance without a new sub and 4-link set up? The mini's are a must since the car is stripped down to the shell.

I agree with the weekend projects. All these area's can be dealt with without going backwards.

Actually your advice sounds like the advice my builder gave me a year or two ago (after I told him what I wanted). He said just get a stock 455 add some upgrades with a good cam, heads, carb, etc. and I would have a great motor to play with.

Again, great advice. Sorry to get subject away from transmissions but I am glad we did.

Thanks and please keep the info heading my way.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.

Thanks for the TKO vote.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by camcojb

build something that you can afford to do in a reasonable time frame. You don't want to do a long term proiject, too easy to lose interest, constantly changing directions as new things come to the market, plus even though it's cool and modern when designed could be dated by the time it's done.

Build a car that fits the budget and make further changes as money allows. You can actually plan it this way so you're not buying everything twice...........

Jody

I have not bought anything just yet (except for quarters, rockers, used hood, new trunk and floor). I don't want to buy anything new now because like you said something else new will come out before I end up putting on the part. Actually at the moment I just want the metal work stage to begin.

I have heard of people losing interest but I don't think it will happen to me. I have always had a vision of rebuilding my '69 and I made a promise to myself a long time ago to rebuild it one day. I actually wanted to do this project with my father (he was a gear head) after he retired but I waited to late. He passed away a little over 5 years ago.

Thanks for your advice.

[GregWeld]

Ron --

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one! LOL

I think you've got a good handle on it. Don't forget to write it all down - stick to it. Anyone will tell you when building a car - it's so easy to loose sight of the ball... and it's like Chess... you add one piece - you have to move or redo two... and then you're in the spiral.

STANCE is all about wheels and tire sizes --- and your suspension. It's all a "trade off" - low stance has it's own set of issues like hitting bottom over big driveway humps etc - but nothing beats the look IF you've willing to make the trade off. Ditto big wheels with rubber band tires - it's the old "pea under a mattress"... you'll feel every pot hole - and undulation in the road. But you gain looks and performance... Somewhere in between is the right combo for YOU... what do you want to trade? Stance is so important - if you want a "looker" - and let's face - who doesn't? That's why body fitment and flatness is so important... Stance - nice paint - great body - the right set of tires and wheels -- you got it going on!

Your builder should MOCK UP the stance before you ever buy a single part... You'll see this being shown/done on almost every build posted here. It's SO IMPORTANT... because you can't get there from here if you don't have an address and a map! Set up the look - take pictures - tape them on the car - or near the car - for reference. People will let you "borrow" tires... as long as they're not MOUNTED on wheels - and you don't mess them up... Well - and as long as you're not a pest...

When I'm looking for tires and wheels - I go to shows and when I see something I like - I do the digital picture thing --- take a close up of the size so you don't forget - and the car and the stance. Once you have a firm grip on what you want - show your builder and he should know how to mock it up from there.

A funny 'story' on this "posting pictures on the car"... I had a 36 Ford - real Henry - 5 window - body was done - and in primer... patch panels etc all done... I mocked up the fenders and running boards - hood - grill. Had to tack weld them on using some 1" square tubing... but you have to SEE the car.... so I've got colored quickly printed pictures all over the trunk lid - one showing the color I like - the other a set of wheels I liked - a couple more of similar cars with the stance... one with the door handles on - and another with it slicked... I pushed this car around in the shed for a year... changing the pictures with updated versions as I found them. Now I'm getting closer to having the car in my mind - but - BIG BUTT - I'm really trying to make the 36 five window into a 37 three window with a chopped top. I wanted to change the hood - the trunk - the 5 windows gone and so that was chop and section the lid etc.... FINALLY I realized I didn't want to build the 36 --- I wanted a 37 ! So -- sold the 36 and shopped 'til I found a suitable 37 --- and NOW I'm happy. Sometimes you just have to "live with it" awhile before it dawns on you what it is that you really want.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Ron --

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one! LOL

I think you've got a good handle on it. Don't forget to write it all down - stick to it. Anyone will tell you when building a car - it's so easy to loose sight of the ball... and it's like Chess... you add one piece - you have to move or redo two... and then you're in the spiral.

STANCE is all about wheels and tire sizes --- and your suspension. It's all a "trade off" - low stance has it's own set of issues like hitting bottom over big driveway humps etc - but nothing beats the look IF you've willing to make the trade off. Ditto big wheels with rubber band tires - it's the old "pea under a mattress"... you'll feel every pot hole - and undulation in the road. But you gain looks and performance... Somewhere in between is the right combo for YOU... what do you want to trade? Stance is so important - if you want a "looker" - and let's face - who doesn't? That's why body fitment and flatness is so important... Stance - nice paint - great body - the right set of tires and wheels -- you got it going on!

Your builder should MOCK UP the stance before you ever buy a single part... You'll see this being shown/done on almost every build posted here. It's SO IMPORTANT... because you can't get there from here if you don't have an address and a map! Set up the look - take pictures - tape them on the car - or near the car - for reference. People will let you "borrow" tires... as long as they're not MOUNTED on wheels - and you don't mess them up... Well - and as long as you're not a pest...

When I'm looking for tires and wheels - I go to shows and when I see something I like - I do the digital picture thing --- take a close up of the size so you don't forget - and the car and the stance. Once you have a firm grip on what you want - show your builder and he should know how to mock it up from there.

A funny 'story' on this "posting pictures on the car"... I had a 36 Ford - real Henry - 5 window - body was done - and in primer... patch panels etc all done... I mocked up the fenders and running boards - hood - grill. Had to tack weld them on using some 1" square tubing... but you have to SEE the car.... so I've got colored quickly printed pictures all over the trunk lid - one showing the color I like - the other a set of wheels I liked - a couple more of similar cars with the stance... one with the door handles on - and another with it slicked... I pushed this car around in the shed for a year... changing the pictures with updated versions as I found them. Now I'm getting closer to having the car in my mind - but - BIG BUTT - I'm really trying to make the 36 five window into a 37 three window with a chopped top. I wanted to change the hood - the trunk - the 5 windows gone and so that was chop and section the lid etc.... FINALLY I realized I didn't want to build the 36 --- I wanted a 37 ! So -- sold the 36 and shopped 'til I found a suitable 37 --- and NOW I'm happy. Sometimes you just have to "live with it" awhile before it dawns on you what it is that you really want.

Yea, I like the killer stance with the right wheel choice. I do not like the skinny tires that a lot of people run. I want the car with a good stance but l don't want to have to worry about bottoming out wherever I go.

I have seen on this site how everyone mocks up their stance. I told my builder awhile back that I want the stance mocked up as well (and even the car mocked up after metal work and before paint to make sure all body panels fit correctly.)

I have taken many photos of cars at shows and cruise in's. The photo's give me future idea's of what I want. (wheel combo, engine bay color, body color, interior, etc) I also have many car magazines with more good idea's for my car. I have gone to shows with my builder showing him what I like which is a huge plus. At work on my computer I have downloaded several hundred car photo's to get examples also. I actually like the look and stance and even the wheels of Todd Akes '69.

Funny story about your '37.

Thanks.

[T_Raven]

It looks like you've already decided against the Richmond but I'd like to add a few things for anyone that might debate this later. And it's good general info about gear sizes.

I was looking at a 69 Firebird that had a Richmond 5 speed and 3.55 rear gears. That would make for 3500 rpms at 75 mph, definitely not acceptable. A TKO 600 with a .68 5th gear would be closer to 2500 rpms at 75, so that's much better. To turn 2500 rpm @ 75 with a 1:1 5th gear you'd need about a 2.40:1 rear gear and I don't even know where to buy anything numerically lower than 3.08, so gears would cost more and offset the savings of a Richmond 5 speed for anyone debating the two.

Richmond advertises that they made a 1:1 5 speed because it's quieter. At a 1:1 ratio you can design a trans to lock the input and output shafts rather than spinning gears to get an over drive, making less noise. I've never noticed an over drive trans to be too noisy though so that's a pointless way to do it in my eyes. To make up for no over drive they gear the whole thing lower so you can use taller rear gears and still have similar gearing overall and low cruise rpm, but like I said, where do you find 2:40:1 gears? Also having a 3.28:1 1st gear is part of what makes the Richmond weeker. To have a higher ratio the two gears need to be further apart in size making for less contact between the two, making for a weeker pair of gears. This is why the TKO 500 with it's 3.27:1 1st gear is weeker than the TKO 600 with it's 2.87:1 1st gear.

The Richmond was part of the reason I didn't buy the dude's car. I would've had to spend quite a bit to change that and a few other things and he wouldn't come down on price enough.

[Flash68]

Like Greg said, run a poll and you will get 100 answers for TKO and Tremec, but 1 or 2 at best for Richmond.