3 link suspension

[Damn True]

Mark,

Wow!

Good tech stuff rawks!

[iapitapun]

Originally Posted by Mean 69

My credentials are BS Applied Physics, Optics, with a smattering of graduate studies in Optical Engineering, as well as graduate level Business. Katz is a BSME. We also consult with professional engineering firms for supplemental analysis that we do not have the capability to do, these firms (one main firm) have a tremendous amount of depth. My last position in the corporate world was Director of Core Module Engineering for a medical laser company, where I had a team of highly skilled engineers from multiple disciplines that designed an incredibly complex opto-mechanical/electro-optical laser based delivery system for use in vision correction surgery. In relative terms, the engineering complexity of designing a performance suspension system is childs play compared to the projects I have successfully led in the past (this is no way intended to belittle what we are doing, nor is it to too my own horn).

So, you are not a suspension engineer. For that matter you are not an engineer. Director of a medical laser company does not correlate to suspension engineer in any way. Just an observation.

The Watt's brackets are placed below the axle for a couple reasons: our philosophy is to have low RRCH, placing the pickup points lower on the axle puts the bellcrank more in line with the pickups, and therefore reduces the bending moment on the links themselves (more of a compression/tensile load in this fashion).

There is a bending moment on the links? How does that happen with a rod end?

Again, most of my questions have not been answered. Maybe they were lost in translation or you just don't have the numbers. You may want to have them handy at some point in the future. It may help market it better. Right now I keep seeing excerpts from Milliken and Adams. I have those books. I do not need to read them here.

The things I would still like to see are:

1. Was this designed for a range of ride heights? If so, what is the range and the Jounce and Rebound levels for each ride height.
2. It looks like the tubes for the watts link hang below the diff. How far below, and what is the ground clearance at curb and full jounce?
3. What is the rear roll steer % at each curb height?
4. What is the range of anti squat and anti lift %?
5. I know you need to remove a portion of the tunnel, do you need to remove any of the floor or trunk to accommodate the rear mount for the three link. It seems like it would limit jounce travel.
7. How long are the links for the watts link? What about the length of the bell crank? I guess I can always scale them from a drawing or measure them at SEMA.

These sound like items that should have been design criteria.

I wish you luck. It might be wise to have this information available at SEMA.

[Teetoe_Jones]

iapitapun-
Welcome to Lateral-G. We are a close nit family here, and like to know each others names. What is yours, and where are you from?
If I didn't know better I'd say you either came from CC.com and want to remain an 'unknown', or you are a competitior trying to get info.
Just an FYI, Mark doesn't need to be an Engineer to have an idea for a 3 link. He employs Katz, a suspension engineer, formerly of Art Morrision, and he knows what is up. I do the exact same thing in my business. I have the ideas, and my engineer makes the parts.
Just wanted to say hello, and get to know a little more about you, your company, and your background. Again, welcome to our little corner of the web.
Tyler

[iapitapun]

Originally Posted by Teetoe_Jones

iapitapun-
Welcome to Lateral-G. We are a close nit family here, and like to know each others names. What is yours, and where are you from?
If I didn't know better I'd say you either came from CC.com and want to remain an 'unknown', or you are a competitior trying to get info.
Just an FYI, Mark doesn't need to be an Engineer to have an idea for a 3 link. He employs Katz, a suspension engineer, formerly of Art Morrision, and he knows what is up. I do the exact same thing in my business. I have the ideas, and my engineer makes the parts.
Just wanted to say hello, and get to know a little more about you, your company, and your background. Again, welcome to our little corner of the web.
Tyler

I got here by following a thread from Pro-Touring. What does CC have to do with anything. At least CC allows people to post real questions. I have read this thread over an over and keep seeing chatter of SVSA length, roll steer, etc. All I asked is tell me what the result was.

Maybe it would be better if I said it RAWKS

How does any of the help a competitor, how is it proprietary?

Yeah I get that it is a close nit group and you all want mark to make tons of money. When I see statements about bending moments in links I get a little nervous.

Earlier in this thread the statement was made that this is the best suspension on the planet, bar none at any cost. Prove it. That is all I ask.

Telling me the SVSA length or the adjustability range should not be proprietary. The Antisquat and lift ranges are not either. These are marketing blurbs. Technical marketing blurbs.

The funny thing is thes questions are here to help everyone. This suspension will require heavy modification to my car, and set me back a few bucks. I want to know some technical stuff. Why can't anyone see that.

Hey if the questions I am asking are all proprietary I apologize. I am sure I can call any manufacturer out there and have them give me anti-squat numbers. As a new company mark and company are going to have to prove themselves.

Bottom line, my 6 questions have values associated with them. None of which will compromise any part of his design. If he has them, I would love to see them. If not, good luck marketing this product.

I am tired of typing. I will look for my answers later in the day.

[Damn True]

Ya know, sometimes on message boards it seems like somone is being hostile and/or accusatory when in reality they are simply being direct. That said, I dunno if it's your intent to come across as hostile, but man it sure seems that way.

[iapitapun]

Originally Posted by Damn True

Ya know, sometimes on message boards it seems like somone is being hostile and/or accusatory when in reality they are simply being direct. That said, I dunno if it's your intent to come across as hostile, but man it sure seems that way.

Not Hostile. I am or maybe was a possible customer. I am asking simple questions of the experts.

Apparently everyone is getting upset because I want to rate this on its technical merits.

Maybe I will stop with the questions. If this thread progresses further, maybe someone will want to know the same.

This is a new company, I want proof they know what they are talking about. That is it. Am I the only one with these questions? I have only seen one or two other posts with technical questions.

I will not buy a product based on people thinking it looks cool. Sorry. Maybe I have asked inappropriate questions.

Maybe alot of my questions will be answered at SEMA or after. I will wait for that.

[68protouring454]

man oh man, if you are such a suspension hero, and know what the numbers mean and how they relate, wtf would you buy someone elses kit??? this makes no sense and more than likely i hope someone finds you out, so people can stop buying products from you, cause obviously you are butt hurt over the fact this 3 link is gonna work, let alone out perform any other kit there.
i am still lost to the fact you know all this suspenison talk, but yet you want someone elses kit, man i wish you could be my hero

[ProStreet R/T]

Originally Posted by Damn True

Ya know, sometimes on message boards it seems like somone is being hostile and/or accusatory when in reality they are simply being direct. That said, I dunno if it's your intent to come across as hostile, but man it sure seems that way.

I agree, the way it was worded sure does make some hostile accusations. The bit about not being a suspension engineer was a bit harsh IMO. I'm not a "suspension engineer" but this stuff is excessively simple compared to some of the stuff we deal with on a daily basis.

Last I checked DSE, Hotchkis, Alston, and a host of others don't publish the figures you asked for. Could be for a number of reasons, one being the range of adjustment is so vast that it's completely application dependant. Not saying they shouldn't post the figures but when trying to appeal to the general public you try not to give them so much info they become intimidated by the product.

Not defending them but honestly when your first post on the subject is calling out someones experience and education you come across as quite the asshole. It's not like he's a CPA with a pocket protector and an etch-a-sketch, having a bs in applied physics does lend it's self to the general cause fairly well here.

Ultimately if you think you can do better give it a shot, sure works for Stielow . Oh and if you re-read the thread quite a few of your questions have been covered if you put a little thought into it.

[ProStreet R/T]

Originally Posted by 68protouring454

man oh man, if you are such a suspension hero, and know what the numbers mean and how they relate, wtf would you buy someone elses kit??? this makes no sense and more than likely i hope someone finds you out, so people can stop buying products from you, cause obviously you are butt hurt over the fact this 3 link is gonna work, let alone out perform any other kit there.
i am still lost to the fact you know all this suspenison talk, but yet you want someone elses kit, man i wish you could be my hero

I'm not sure if his posts are truly of the accusatory nature as they seem or just bad writing. If he really has a competent understanding of suspension design and theory it would be foolish to buy any "kit" as they will all have short falls for a given application. IMO he's either a bitter competator or some noob who got google happy and is trying to sound smrt... I mean smart.

Next he's going to post a callout thread to Moton on the dampning range of their shocks for every combination of a million different shim stacks and nitrogen charges

[Damn True]

Mark dosen't need me or anyone else to come to his aid, but just the same I am somewhat compelled, by virtue of a similar experience in my former career.

Iapitapun, here's a little role playing game for you.

Imagine you are sitting at work, doing something bitchin with your MSME, but you have a deadline for the project, and that deadline is this Friday the 28th.

Now while all this is going on some big fella who you've never seen nor heard of; with spiked hair, ear-rings, tatoos and a goatee (ok...thats me) comes into your office.

Now, right off the bat I start raising a ruckus screaming and yelling and asking if you got your degree from some diploma mill in the Philipines, shouting out loud about your questionable background, that of your co-workers and casting aspersions on the lineage of your dog.

Then, I go on-and-on about how it seems you have no freakin idea what you are doing since you have yet to publish the data on the project you are STILL WORKING ON.

Then, after all that, I ask, nay, I DEMAND that you to give me all of your measurements, the results of your R&D and essentially everything that you have done to differentiate your product from that of your competition.

Now you don't know if I'm some dude with a fat wad of cash burning a hole in my pocket, some wack-job off the street, or a competitor with a patent axe to grind. But what you do know is that I have insulted your credibility and questioned your integrity in front of others. If you didn't tell me to pound sand in my arse I'd be surprised.
I'm guessing Mark gave you a lot more of an answer than you would give me.

But here's the thing. I actually wouldn't do any of the above. If I was interested in what you were working on, the first thing I'd do is tell you what I want from my project and let you tell me (not sell me) if your product is even remotely close to what I'm looking for. Then I'd ask you to explain why, filling in any follow up questions on the features and benefits along the way. That's what I did when I first heard about Mark's system and ya know what? It worked. Try it.