1969 Camaro Project questions

[rebelceb]

Hey there! I am new around here, and in the process if trying to lay the ground work and know what to expect on going pro-touring with my 69 Camaro. Hopefully this is the correct forum to post these questions.

I have researched a ton, gotten together a parts list, and talked with a couple of shops. I have pretty well settled on one as they have been extremely responsive and easy to deal with when asking questions, etc.

The only problem I am running into is on the quote they gave an estimated number of labor hours that seems extremely high. I just cannot for the life of me figure out where the number of hours is coming from. I know good work takes time, but this seems insane.

So, before I say what they estimated (based on another build they say they did that ended up similarly, except it was a convertible and mine is a coupe) I am curious what everyone here thinks.

So as far as the build goes, the car is already painted, body and car is in excellent shape so none of that will need to be done. Photos have been sent to the builder and this is confirmed to be satisfactory to him. Basically what I am wanting done is as follows, which is all fairly standard for a top notch PT build:

LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc)
DSE front subframe
DSE body mounts
DSE Mini tub
DSE QUADRAlink
DSE anti-roll bar
DSE subframe connectors
DSE 9"
DSE gas tank
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges
DSE wiper motor
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted
Vintage Air
DSE Roll cage
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster
Baer 6P brakes front and rear
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Ididit column
Stainless exhaust

I know the parts are going to be expensive, but the labor range quoted is almost as much/more than the parts cost. I have talked to DSE themselves, but their labor rate/hr is much higher and they couldn't take the car for almost a year anyway. This shop is just as reputable, much lower labor rate, and can take the car the end of May.

I'm not looking to be talked into Ridetech or Speedtech or any other components as at this point I am pretty set and have a game plan.

I am attaching a good picture of the car as it sits now for reference. Thank you all for your time and help! Looking forward to seeing what you think!

[cjsgarage]

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by cjsgarage

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

You can do all that work in just about 4 weeks, working 40 hours per week? Let me know when you can start and I will send you as many cars as you can handle.

It takes way more time then you think. Its pretty common to see the labor equal the parts total in most any project. The custom top notch cars begin to increase the labor total from there. The 50-50 split with labor and parts is pretty entry level.

[Musclerodz]

Originally Posted by ironworks

You can do all work in just about 4 weeks, working 40 hours per week? Let me know when you can start and I will send you as many cars as you can handle.

It takes way more time then you think. Its pretty common to see the labor equal the parts total in most any project. The custom top notch cars begin to increase the labor total from there. The 50-50 split with labor and parts is pretty entry level.

I was just about to say the same thing, but adding that only applies to larger projects, not just installing a set of mini-tubs before we get a stupid comment and someone wants a set of tubs installed for $400.

[GregWeld]

Building cars - or highly modifying them - and trying to get a firm bid is a rats nest of what if's - as long as we're here's - and Wow! I didn't know they just painted over rust.

I don't care who bids the job - or how close you think you're going to stick to your plan - it won't happen. Plan on that - and you'll have a good plan.

The fact that your car is painted - ADDS to the cost, not subtracts. Now everything has to be protected - and work slows to be considerate of the paint and bodywork.

NEVER confuse labor rate - and time. This is a fools way to go about a project. It's about efficiency. A guy that charges $45 an hour - but takes 3 hours to do a one hour job is more expensive than the guy that charges $105 an hour and does the job in one hour.

A shop that does the car you have - over and over - and knows where to source all the parts - knows how to anticipate the work - has done it a zillion times - CAN BE more efficient. I say "can be" because it depends on whether they pass along the savings.

And then there's the owner.... Who, once he sees other cars with bigger tires and other "stuff".... decides to change this or that and thinks it's SIMPLE and No Biggie. HA! Good luck with that.

Can you write a $100,000 check the day you drop the car off at the shop? If not - don't start.

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by Musclerodz

I was just about to say the same thing, but adding that only applies to larger projects, not just installing a set of mini-tubs before we get a stupid comment and someone wants a set of tubs installed for $400.

I'm saying the project as a whole. It really starts at some where around a 50/50 split and goes up from there.

[GregWeld]

I just noticed that you plan to install an "Idiot Column"..... PERFECT! LOL


Okay - being totally serious here. You've got all manor of good parts and an exceptional motor choice. You're parts list and list of work is well short on many items that WILL add costs - and shouldn't be underestimated. For instance - there's no mention of the new rear end that will be required. Either your 12 bolt will need narrowing - or you'll be buying the standard new Ford 9" - narrowed.

People ALWAYS underestimate the amount of little things... Such as - once you pull the fenders and front end off the car - and really take a look at just how FUGLY the firewall is on these cars... you'll want to smooth that (already in your bid). Then once that's smoothed - the inner fenders look FUGLY - so you'll have those smoothed and painted (not mentioned). Then the hinges are crap - so you'll need Ring Brothers... And when you change out the tranny for a more modern version (such as your already listed T56) - you'll find your console doesn't work anymore...

Now - you'll also get up under the dash and (maybe) find that you have 47 year old wiring... and you're trying to find a home for a couple ECU's and their associated relays etc.... so plan to do a full wiring upgrade. Not to mention the addition of your Vintage Air.... that means the entire dash is already out of the car - so might as well clean everything up. And you'll also find that your "AstoVents" don't seal outside air anymore - so those have to be fixed - or better yet, eliminated.

Do you want your "Stainless exhaust" TIG welded or just butchered with a MIG machine? Do you want them to go up over the axle? Clear that old gas tank? Nope - you need a new gas tank with the proper pumps and billet vents...

I'm not trying to be negative here at all.... I'm being REALISTIC. You're already complaining about the proposed bid. That tells me you're not educated on what you're getting in to. I'm just trying to give you a realistic "heads up".

[Vega$69]

Here you go based on doing several 69s PT cars.. Having the car painted already will add additional time. Hours included removing the original parts. These estimated hours may or not be what a shop charges and depends on how many guys they have working on your car.


LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc) 24 hours
DSE front subframe 12 hours
DSE body mounts 2 hours
DSE Mini tub 40 hours
DSE QUADRAlink 40 hours
DSE anti-roll bar 2 hour
DSE subframe connectors inc in quadralink
DSE 9" 8 hours
DSE gas tank 2 hours
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges 8 hours with wiring
DSE wiper motor 2 hours
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted 10-12 hours
Vintage Air 12 hours
DSE Roll cage 24 hours
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster2 hours
Baer 6P brakes front and rear8 hours
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Idiot column 2 hours but I would use a GM Tilt instead
Stainless exhaust $2000

Ok that comes to 135 hours not including all the little stuff in between like running brake lines, fuel lines, put the car back together like the front clip, grill bumpers, interior and on and on.

So now take the 160 hours and double it to 320 hours and you'll be close.

Plus you've not considered the installation and subsequent removal for paint/powder coating and reinstallation of a lot of the components

My last car I bought as a painted roller with the DSE quadralink, F9, tubs and roll bar already installed and the firewall smoothed. I spent 400-500 hours finishing the car.

All in I would plan on $40K-$50K for the complete job plus parts

[rebelceb]

First off, thanks for the responses! They have helped so far, and hopefully I can quantify my questions a little more and help narrow some things down!

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I just noticed that you plan to install an "Idiot Column"..... PERFECT! LOL spelling error due to computer's autocorrect lol


Okay - being totally serious here. You've got all manor of good parts and an exceptional motor choice. You're parts list and list of work is well short on many items that WILL add costs - and shouldn't be underestimated. understood, and I have considered those and they are in his email to me and in our discussions, I just haven't listed them individually here and was hoping for consideration on these ancillary parts when throwing an estimated number at itFor instance - there's no mention of the new rear end that will be required. Either your 12 bolt will need narrowing - or you'll be buying the standard new Ford 9" - narrowed. I mentioned it in my list under "DSE 9"" as it will already come narrowed, brackets welded on and powder coated

People ALWAYS underestimate the amount of little things... Such as - once you pull the fenders and front end off the car - and really take a look at just how FUGLY the firewall is on these cars... you'll want to smooth that (already in your bid). Then once that's smoothed - the inner fenders look FUGLY - so you'll have those smoothed and painted (not mentioned). agreed to a degree, my goal for this car isn't to be a show stopper or SEMA car, but a car that looks like a 2016 version of a 69 Camaro that can be driven and used without concern for getting a scratch or a knick in the paintThen the hinges are crap - so you'll need Ring Brothersmay send new hinges or keep the stock ones as they are new with the restoration a few years ago... And when you change out the tranny for a more modern version (such as your already listed T56) - you'll find your console doesn't work anymore... no console in the car currently, and no plan for one

Now - you'll also get up under the dash and (maybe) find that you have 47 year old wiring... and you're trying to find a home for a couple ECU's and their associated relays etc.... so plan to do a full wiring upgrade. Not to mention the addition of your Vintage Air.... that means the entire dash is already out of the car - so might as well clean everything up. And you'll also find that your "AstoVents" don't seal outside air anymore - so those have to be fixed - or better yet, eliminated. consideration for this is included in his quote

Do you want your "Stainless exhaust" TIG welded or just butchered with a MIG machine? Do you want them to go up over the axle? Clear that old gas tank? Nope - you need a new gas tank with the proper pumps and billet vents...gas tank included if you will notice, and no doubt they would TIG weld the exhaust. the shop I am dealing with is extremely reputable, I just haven't mentioned them because I have nothing negative to say and don't want it to cloud anyones judgement

I'm not trying to be negative here at all.... I'm being REALISTIC. You're already complaining about the proposed bid. That tells me you're not educated on what you're getting in to. I'm just trying to give you a realistic "heads up".I am educated to a point, and I am not complaining. my question has to do with how many hours because I believe it could be done for half the labor hours that he has quoted or less based on talking to others, but you guys are more of an expert than me and those that I have talked to.

Originally Posted by Vega$69

Here you go based on doing several 69s PT cars.. Having the car painted already will add additional time. Hours included removing the original parts. These estimated hours may or not be what a shop charges and depends on how many guys they have working on your car. I understand working around existing paint takes additional time, but still costs less than a total repaint. as far as removing old parts, I am planning to do that myself although he quoted me on me driving the car to them as it sits and them doing the tear down and installation. No doubt I will save labor by bringing him a rolling chassis.


LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc) 24 hours
DSE front subframe 12 hours
DSE body mounts 2 hours
DSE Mini tub 40 hours
DSE QUADRAlink 40 hours
DSE anti-roll bar 2 hour
DSE subframe connectors inc in quadralink
DSE 9" 8 hours
DSE gas tank 2 hours
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges 8 hours with wiring
DSE wiper motor 2 hours
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted 10-12 hours
Vintage Air 12 hours
DSE Roll cage 24 hours
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster2 hours
Baer 6P brakes front and rear8 hours
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Idiot column 2 hours but I would use a GM Tilt insteadGood to know on the GM tilt, I will inquire
Stainless exhaust $2000

Ok that comes to 135 hours not including all the little stuff in between like running brake lines, fuel lines, put the car back together like the front clip, grill bumpers, interior and on and on.

So now take the 160 hours and double it to 320 hours and you'll be close. Good to know

Plus you've not considered the installation and subsequent removal for paint/powder coating and reinstallation of a lot of the components the plan is that most stuff will be powder coated from DSE (9", QUADRAlink, subframe, etc so hopefully nothing will have to be mocked up and torn back down. Obviously the firewall will need to be painted and the roll cage, subframe connectors, and the underneath, etc

My last car I bought as a painted roller with the DSE quadralink, F9, tubs and roll bar already installed and the firewall smoothed. I spent 400-500 hours finishing the car. Also good to know, that is still significantly less than the number of hours quoted.

All in I would plan on $40K-$50K for the complete job plus parts

[will69camaro]

Some excellent advice being given in here. Big items, while the bulk of the expense, can be surpassed individually by the small add on stuff, and it adds up fast.

I've been building my car for 5 years and it's been off and on in shops. I'm completing the car myself now and it seems there's always another 500-1000 to spend here and there. Hell my catch can solution for my motor is looking like it's rounding the corner for $500 and that's just a catch can!

As said, the further you dig into it, the more stuff you'll find that you want to change or you'll want to modify since you're there, and it all adds up in the end. Add in the nice car to start and as mentioned, working around those painted panels will cause more time to be spent being more careful!

I wish you luck, but expect the unexpected in cost...

I think I was told on here, take your original budget and triple it and it will be close.