Idea- pre '70 notch-back mustang road racer/auto crosser

[mike343sharpstk]

Here is the deal, I really want to do a road race/track day/auto cross car next... Long term plan. Thowing some ideas around in my head.

Problem is, I don't typically like common cars, but the reality of it that building a mopar or an AMC track day/road race car is just to damn expensive. Hell, it would be a full time job finding parts in the event of a wreck. The point of the sport is driving the car, not searching for parts.

There is a very good reason most guys use mustangs, vettes, or Camaros for this.

Lately I've had a thing for the old Terlingua mustangs...


I was looking at the SVRA rule book and checking eBay for good donor cars, what are your thoughts on the cost of building a 1968/70 notch-back Mustang chassis and a new boss 302 ford block as the basis for the power plant.
The SVRA rules seem to eliminate the ?trick? parts and seem to keep it pretty basic.
[URL="http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.nsf/attachmentweb/EJEN-687JEX/$file/Ford+Mustang+Sedans+(64-70).pdf?OpenElement"]

A good shell seems relatively available and inexpensive? A Cougar would be cooler, but more expensive.
With something like this I could do track days, svra events, auto-crosses, etc.
Could a guy do a car like this for 15 to 20 grand in parts??

[coolwelder62]

Mike the guy's at Gatway classic Mustang have done one close to that.If you don't do a javelin I am going to.If I don't run out of money first.Still looking for a humpster to LS power.Go AMC.We will start our own club.

[mike343sharpstk]

I totally want to do a javelin, It's just so much effort to get good race parts. For example it took me a year to find a good 401 core for a decent price, and even that wasn't exactly cheap.

The rules for javelins call out a 310 CI max engine so I would then need to de-stoke and possibly sleeve a 401 block. (Waaaay better than the 290/304/343/360 blocks), then figure out the appropriate crank and either modify a forged 401 unit or sell a kidney and get a moldex custom crank. I could build an old cast crank 290 but then I would be either last or I would be the guy that oiled down the track on every outing.

If I do a ford build I simply dial up FORD and order a NEW boss 302 block and get a good forged 302 crank from any number of places for a fraction of the cost.
And what if I crumple a rear fender

I was just hangin' around the three original race javelins this weekend to and man were they sexy!
Javelin rules here...
http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.ns...df?OpenElement

[rwhite692]

Sounds like a great project...Those early mustang notchback coupes are plentiful and cheap. You should be looking in California (central valley area) and get yourself a rust free one. They are all over the place.

[byndbad914]

Originally Posted by mike343sharpstk

Could a guy do a car like this for 15 to 20 grand in parts??

Folks tend to seriously under-predict what it takes to road race a car, even a simple one. For example, I just picked up new race pads for my car - just brake pads, nothing else, full set $400. It is possible they would be a bit cheaper for the Mustang stuff v. my old 70s Brembos on my car, but you hopefully get the point. Pads for Wilwoods can be cheap, but you are limited to stock stuff by the rules. Tires will be $1K a set for bias plys. A halfway decent Holley-style road race carb with triangular floats, etc is $800. If you build even a simple Dart head combo (they don't say anything about porting so I am assuming you can port the crap out of them, etc which you will need to do to be competitive) that will last for more than a season or two you will have $10K carb to pan I would expect if you are going to use parts like the new block you mention.

Machining on the block alone to make sure it is all perfect for a good race engine will not be cheap ( a nice, finer race hone is more $ than a regular hone, etc), and the block is $1800 to begin with. It is not uncommon to put $800-$1K machining into a rough block like that. I would run the 3" stroke, use a 5.4" rod for rod to stroke ratio, piston comp height (CH) is 1.3", not too bad, not the lightest piston, but durable and way lighter than using a stock CH. Can use a simple 1/16 1/16 3/16 ring package.

Key is and where money can really roll is INSIDE the engine where they don't look... so guys might have a seemingly simple 302 combo but inside they have $1200 lightweight rods like Crower, etc, porting with welding involved, etc to reshape ports, all sorts of stuff. Roller cams and lifters aren't the cheapest thing. On and on. You can get nice shaft mount rocker setups for decent money these days, so that is getting better, and if I run a solid roller I run the shaft mounts v. all that stud girdle BS.

A good road race pan (assuming you don't/can't go dry sump which is frankly the only route I go anymore) will cost ya bucks, then it hangs down so far that if you go off track and hit a big dip you can ruin it (been there before). All this ancillary stuff many tend to forget in their general budgeting is what adds up big time.

Oh yeah, PLUMBING, holy crap, that adds up real nice like and many folks never think of really how much that is. Oil coolers for example... the cooler is the cheapest part. Run some braided line and pick up a few fittings and suddenly you spent a few hundred bucks. Fuel cell (it might be up to you I suspect with that group but it is safety IMO so a must have) and all the plumbing, fuel pump, etc and you can hurdle a grand pretty quick.

Not to be a nay-sayer or bringer of bad news, but a $20K budget to purchase a 68 Mustang and then make it truly road course worthy (as in safe with all good quality parts, not just put together cheap and able to get onto the track without falling apart) is pretty tough IMHO. Raise that marker $10K and I would say if you do pretty much all of the work you can be on the track with a safe and competitive car for that.

There is a motivation to get on the track so I understand the desire, but I have seen many a project go unfinished and guys, head in hands, bummed out cuz they ran out of money, have all of what they had tied up in something that is worth half if they have to sell it, so I would rather you had a better picture of what might lie ahead than be that guy.

Attached is a pic of a car a friend of mine restored and owned back in the early 90s - he let me drive it at Willow Springs in SoCal.

[67Fastback]

This should get you excited
http://shelbyautos.com/gallery.asp?car=Teroldmustang

I'm doing a 68 coupe. No joke, to do this correctly, is expensive. Check out www.streetortrack.com for a lot of components, ideas. www.cobranda.com has some stuff too.

[mike343sharpstk]

Tim, that's some great information!
Exacly what I'm looking to hear, and you can't get too much info on the risky side of the discussion.

I somewhat get the cost of racing, in the 90's I road raced a Ducati, not the big dollar liquid cooled stuff, the cheap( ) air-cooled 2v Super Sport. I did all the fabrication and maintenance on my own and had a great builder/tuner build the engine, and also worked with a great local suspension guy.
My wife (girlfriend at the time) helped me on rece weekends, and maried me anyway
So yeah, it's not going to be cheap, but I'm looking for a way to go racing because I miss it a bunch Bikes are great but the ground seems to get harder and harder as I get older.
That and the car world in general is also very family friendly. part of the appeal of the vintage world is that they limit high-tech stuff and your ride can't get out-dated

Not looking to win a championship of any kinid, already did that and have a great, and tiny, trophy to show for it
Just looking to burn some tires and have fun.

Jeff, great links! That shelby stuff is great, I was at the Shelby place in Vegas a few months back

[MSchu]

Originally Posted by mike343sharpstk

Here is the deal, I really want to do a road race/track day/auto cross car next...Could a guy do a car like this for 15 to 20 grand in parts??

Do want to wheel-to-wheel race or just open track? Big difference. Not sure since you're looking at SVRA rules. If you actually want to race in a vintage series and are asking about money you should probably look elsewhere. Those guys have 20K+ in the motor alone. If you just want to open track a vintage Mustang, you can do it for way way less than 15-20K. 65-68 Mustangs are probably the easiest and cheapest classic cars to set up for track day duty. Start reading the Vintage-Mustang Track forum and this vintage Mustang thread on Corner-Carvers.

Originally Posted by byndbad914

Folks tend to seriously under-predict what it takes to road race a car, even a simple one.

What he said, but it pertains more to campaigning a full on racing effort. Again, completely different from just thrashing your car at a track day.

[mike343sharpstk]

Realistically I think the smart thing to do is start out with some track day and autocross events with the goal of hitting a couple vintage events each season eventually as both I and the car progress.
Build the car per a certain rule-set with a long-term goal in mind.

[asifnyc]

AMC Rules.

I've been going through a similar process this year. I started doing open track days again after a 10yr hiatus. I did the 3 earlier this year in my 2003 z06 vette and then, in May, did a 2 day event at Buttonwillow with my '73 street Javelin. I've since done a 3rd track day with the Javelin at Thunderhill and am scheduled for another 5 tracks days this year (all with the Javelin). once I ran the javelin I was hooked. even though the z06 has a hundred more horse power it's just so much more satisfying to be out there with my AMC. If you're an AMC guy you need to build an AMC. notchback stangs are great and make great cars for anything (street, track, race, drag)... but it's not an AMC.

After that first weekend with the Javelin I realized I wanted a dedicated track car and it needed to be a Javelin. I then quickly realized that if I was going to make a track car I should make it eligible for some racing series so if I decided I wanted to race I'd have a home. That quickly evolved into the realization that I wanted to build a RACE car that I could run at open track days for more seat time...

As has been accurately stated there's a big difference between a track day car and a full race car. I looked around (including SVRA) and decided to build for NASA American Iron. SVRA is very "period" based which I think makes things more expensive. They also have a 1972 cut off and the shell I'm building is a '74. But the biggest issue for me with SVRA is they didn't have very many events in California and I'm not going to be traveling all of the country to go to races.

If you just want a track day car I think you could easily build a solid, fun, reliable car for $10k. I've been really surprised by how well my street Javelin works on track. Now, it's not a stocker but the things that make it track worthy are: big wilwood brake kit ($2k), coil over suspension ($700), 16x8 vintage wheelworks wheels with kumho victoracer dot legal track tires and a power steering cooler. that's really it. It's got a 360 with headers and was rebuilt with a cam and a little head work. It's been dyno'd with 267hp at the rear wells. so this is a tame motor. but it still get's up and goes. it never runs hot and I drive it to all the events I go to, beat on it, then drive it home. If I was going to run this car long term it would need a road race pan but for the next few events I'll just put in an extra quart of oil.

A race car ups the ante for sure. anyway, just wanted to put in a strong vote for AMC. We need more cars on track. I'm always surprised by how much of a stir my Javelin makes when I bring it to track days. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I've got some in-car track videos on my blog that might inspire you to go for the AMC: http://asifnyc.com