My customer EXPERIENCE with Driverz Inc.

[jocko124]

I have been talking/PMing with Jon at Driverz Inc. for the last two weeks trying to give him every opportunity to fix what I believe to be an error on his part in recommending wheels and tires for my 1966 Cutlass. Unfortunately, this boils down to just money for Jon and he is absolutely not open to owning up to his mistake and fixing the problem. To Jon, it's all about the next sale and customer service is nothing more than a slogan. Bottom line, if you decide to make a purchase from Driverz Inc., and I’m not recommending that you do, at least you’ll be making an informed decision.

Let’s start at the beginning. I participated in a group buy that Driverz Inc. had on 8/21/2009. I paid 50% down for a set of Rushforths. He recommended a set of 18x8’s for the front and 19x10 for the rears. The backspace on the rears was 6”, but I wanted to maximize the wheel lip and Jon recommended a 5” backspace, but warned I could not drop the rear of the car lower until I narrowed my rear end. This was based on his vast experience with A Bodies—or at least that’s what he told me. I ended up not pulling the trigger until 8/11/2010. I had my front end torn apart and did not need the wheels; Jon was fully aware of this. He charged me for the price increase in the wheels for 2010 and I was promised wheels 6 weeks later. As the weeks went on 6, 8, 10, 12…more excuses were made: 1) Rushforth is out of 18” hoops; 2) there’s been a delay with the manufacturer and they’re 2 weeks out; 3) the 19” wheels were stolen and have to be remade. At week 11 Jon and I agreed that if the wheels were not at least at his shop by week 12 I would drop the order and buy something else. Some of the excuses were more believable than others and to be fair I have no idea whether these were Jon’s issues or Rushforth’s—and frankly I don’t care! We moved on, I ordered a set of Forgelines for $1000 more. They were promised in 5 weeks and God bless Forgeline, they were ready at 5 weeks to the day. I remember because it was early Thanksgiving week and when I called Forgeline to check up on the wheels (read: check up on Jon) they told me the wheels were ready to go and they were waiting to get paid by Jon. I called Jon to ask about the wheels and he had no idea and said he would call. Long story short I finally received the wheels and tires a couple of weeks later (4 months after I originally made full payment) and slapped them on the car which was up on stands because I was redoing the front end and forgot about them until a month ago.

About a month ago I took the car to Tim Bruning to do a T-56 Magnum swap for me. There were some complications (due to my crank not having a pilot bearing hole machined in it) and therefore I asked Tim to drop my rear end in the meanwhile. Tim obviously has done this a time or two before and even when he picked the car up originally said the rear end did not need to be narrowed. He took the springs out and ended up dropping the rear all the way down. There is approximately 3/8”-1/2” clearance to the fender and about 2” of clearance to the frame and inner fender well. I felt the fitment was incorrect and needed to be fixed. I spoke to Tim and few other members of lateral-g and even another supporting wheel vendor of Lateral-G over the next week to make sure that my expectations were not unreasonable before approaching Jon. Then & only then did I approach Jon. Now based on the rave reviews I’ve seen for Driverz Inc on Lateral-G.net and Pro-touring.com and Jon’s own advertising on these websites and the Driverz Inc website I figured this would literally be a walk in the park. Let me give you some examples:

1) An excerpt from the Driverz Inc. website tech section regarding recommended fitments:

Q: Do you have recommended fitments?
A: Yes! From years of measuring and recording basic measurements on muscle cars, hot rods, classic cars and production cars, we have complied recommended fitments that we can suggest with 100% confidence. We also have installed, built, worked on, and are familiar with the majority of the most popular aftermarket upgrades, and understand how these modifications relate to wheel and tire fitment. So whether it’s a full restoration, or a fully built custom, we have the knowledge to fit you with the perfect set of wheels.

2) An excerpt from the Driverz Inc. website tech section regarding tire/wheel and fender spacing:

Q: How much room should I leave between my outer fender, my inner fender, and my tire?
A: This question is relative to the size of the tire, and the sidewall height. Tires that are 65 series or higher will experience sidewall flex more so than a lower pro-file tire. For tires that are 65 series or higher, and street driven, the accepted clearance is .75" to the outer fender, and 1" to the inner fender. For tires lower in profile, in most cases, a .5" outer fender and .75" inner fender clearance is acceptable. Ride height and suspension modifications all play a vital role in wheel and tire fitment. For the widest wheel and tire option, please download our custom fitment form, and/or give us a call for technical assistance.

3) An excerpt from his introduction of Driverz Inc. on Chevelles.com:

For those of you who don't know me, and DriverzInc.com, here's the Reader's Digest version. I started Driverz 4 years ago after leaving another major custom wheel manufacturer with one goal in mind: Help customers with their custom wheel fitment by taking out all the guess work and the mystery of custom wheel applications, and to provide an honest, and over the top approach to customer service.

We pride ourselves on our product knowledge, especially when it comes to how these parts work together. We try and make your car building/modifying experience as easy and as fun as possible, making sure your brakes, work with your suspension, which will work with your wheels, and tires, and so on.

Well, after reading all that wonderful marketing material I feel like ordering another set of wheels from Driverz Inc. ...Almost!

[jocko124]

I first contacted Jon via PM on Lateral-G. Here are the PM's: (6/10/2011-6/11/2011)


Hey Jon,
This is Lee--I have the 66 Cutlass. Quick question on my rear wheels. By giving me the max width wheel that would fit in my rear wheel well you went from a 6" backspace to a 5" backspace and therefore in order for me to be able to lower the rear end of the car I need to shorten the rear end by 1" on each side? I'm asking because I'm going to shorten the rear end and wanted to make sure I remembered your recommendation correctly.
Lee


Lee,
Yes, normally, we would build a 10" wheel with a 6" backspace for a stock length rear end. To make a 5" work, the rear end then would have to be narrowed by 1" on each side.
Does that help?
Jon


Jon,
we've got major problems! I went out to Tim Bruning's shop today and he lowered the rear end all the way with the springs removed and there is approximately 2" of space to the frame from the back side of the wheel and about 3/8" of an inch from the front face of the wheel to the car's fender. I'm not certain if the wheels backspacing was done incorrectly or your calculations were somehow off. I did measure the depth of the dish and it was only 3.75" which makes me think the backspace is 6" and not 5" as we discussed, because I remember you telling me you expected the dish to be about 5". Obviously this is an issue that needs to be corrected and I was wondering what your recommendation is for moving forward?
Lee


Lee,
3/8" is exactly what we want clearance wise to the outer fender. You want the wheel and tire pushed as far as possible out to the outer fender which is achieved by less backspace. If you increase backspace, we'll be essentially tucking the wheel further under the car, and you'll be losing more backspace. So what's the problem again?
Jon


Jon,
The backspace was supposed to be 5"--I believe it's 6". So the wheel fits without narrowing the rear end!
Lee


Lee,
The only way to varify that is to measure them. I'm sure he knows how to measure backspace, but it needs to be measured from the back edge of the rim, down to the mounting surface of the wheel.
Jon


Jon,
Tim measured one of the wheels and the backspace is approximately 5.25". My question to you is, taking into account the fact that there is about 2" of space between the rear of the wheel and the frame of the car, is there a technical reason why you did not build the wheels with a 4" backspace to maximize the depth of the lip as I had requested?
Lee


Lee,
Okay, so they are built right then, with the backspace we asked Forgeline to build them to.
So there are a couple of unanswered questions there then, and I'll lay them all out then for you.
First is there is no way that a 10" wheel would have that much "left over" space between the frame, and your tire. On any stock tub, 66-67 A-body, a 10" wheel with a 6" backspace, and a stock length rear end, would leave you 3/8" to the outer fender, and .75" to the inner fender.
Based on what you are telling me, you are saying you could fit a 11" wide wheel in the back of your car with a 315, and we know that isn't possible on a stock tub.
Also, the rear end under your car can not be a stock length rear end. If it were, your wheel would be sticking an inch outside the fender, and its not, so something may be goofy there. I think the next step would be to verify the length of your rear end.
All I know is these are the facts. A 66-67 A-body takes a 10" wide wheel with a 6" backspace, and at the widest a 285 wide tire. This offset leaves 3/8" to the other fender, and .5-.75" to the inner fender for clearance, which is the max possible. You asked us to narrow that by 1" on each side, and we did so by having the wheels built a 5" backspace, which is what you received. So something else is off here, and we need to figure out what it is... from what you are telling me your car is mini-tubbed with a narrowed rear end already, and unless somebody did some modifications to your car that you didn't know about, there are some missing pieces of information here.
Jon


Jon,
Just talked to Bruning and he does not feel the rear of the car has been mini-tubbed or modified in any way.
Lee


Lee
I'm confused Lee. What do you want me to do for you from here? 3/8" is perfect as far as room to the outer fender. Do you want to widen the wheels?
Jon


Jon,
Actually, I was hoping you would be able to recommend the next step. I relied on your expertise to size a set of wheels for this car. Unless there is some modification to the car (which I am willing to explore further) it appears that you missed the mark based on your assumption that all 66-67 A bodies are similar. The fact that you did not expect the car could be lowered without first narrowing the rear end clearly demonstrates that. I'm not worried about the 3/8" to the outer fender, it's the 2" to the frame that concerns me. So we're back to the initial question I asked you when I purchased the wheels for the car--what's the max width wheel I can fit under the car? If you would like some measurements Tim or I will gladly provide those.
Lee

[jocko124]

After these PM’s and after Tim Bruning had taken the measurements I decided to call Jon to speed up the process. When I called Jon and was literally called a liar and that my car was modified or somehow different I was flabbergasted. I told Jon that the rear end of my Cutlass, to my knowledge, was not modified in any way and told him he was welcome to talk to Tim Bruning or bring in a third party of his choosing to check the car out. Let me paraphrase a couple of things Jon said:

1) “I did not hold a gun to your head to go with the wheel sizes I recommended!” (Wow, what happened to “recommended fitments that we can suggest with 100% confidence”? and his goal to “Help customers with their custom wheel fitment by taking out all the guess work and the mystery of custom wheel applications, and to provide an honest, and over the top approach to customer service?”)

2) “It’s people like you that make me want to quit selling wheels.” (Wow, why am I being made out as the bad guy when it’s your wheel recommendation that’s in question?)

3) “The rear wheels fit. 3/8" is perfect as far as room to the outer fender.” (Really? What about the 2” of space between the wheel and inner wheel well? 2” wide wheels would “fit” but is that what a pro-touring wheel expert would recommend? If so what about the tech section on Driverz Inc?:
“For tires lower in profile, in most cases, a .5" outer fender and .75" inner fender clearance is acceptable. “ If that’s the case, why would Jon recommend a 2” clearance to the inner fender and expect that the rear of the car could not be lowered without narrowing the rear end unless his assumption that all A Bodies are the same was incorrect?)

I also checked with a few others on classicoldsmobile.com that have 1966 Cutlasses and they all have ample room in the rear wheel well. They all agreed that you could not compare a Chevelle to a Cutlass—they’re both A Bodies but they are very different when it comes to wheel fitment/sizing. Something that Jon should have known—or at least double-checked.

Not convinced? Heck we haven’t even touched on the fitment of the fronts yet—they’re swimming in the wheel wells as well! So much for “You want the wheel and tire pushed as far as possible out to the outer fender.” I will now attach a couple of pics that Tim Bruning took. For those of you that know Tim, you know he’s an honest guy that would never fabricate a story just to back me or anyone else up. I encourage you to contact him if you feel I have not provided a fair assessment of the situation, so you can hear it straight from the horse’s mouth.

Finally, I present you with a couple of Pics of what a professionally recommended pro-touring wheel fitment should look like according to Jon @ Driverz Inc:

[DriverzInc]

Wow, quite the dissertation.

I could compose a very long and drawn out response, but its 5:30 and I'm on my way out to spend time with my 10 week old daughter, and after the day I've had, shipping a pallet of wheels, and fixing everyone elses crap lately, I don't have the time to go through and read this whole post again.

As everyone can see, I have been responding to his PM's, so I'm not ignoring the guy, but he's using the forum to put pressure on me to eat widening his rear wheels for free saying its my fault his 10" wheels in the back and his 8" wheels in the front don't "fit", and I think they do. Sorry you could have gone wider, but they don't rub, and all of sudden I'm the BAD GUY.

But I do have my side of the story to tell.

Quite frankly, I'm very, very tired of guys like Lee, and I'm thinking its time to hang it up. After all we've done to help out as much as we can, sometimes you just can't win.

I guess I'll tell my side of the story tomorrow, for everyone to read....

Here's what this guys car looks like:

QUOTE=jocko124;348661]I got some black SPC UCA sleeves from Marcus and reassembled the UCAs. I think they turned out pretty good.



and then attached my Upper & Lower Control Arms







Finally got the helical spacers in from SPC!



TADAAAAA: assembled the UCA, LCA, SPC springs, VariShock QS2 shocks, and ATS AFX Spindles.



Couple of goodies from Lee Steering:







Forgeline FS3P's:





[/QUOTE]

[Fluid Power]

So what is the beef? Jon made recommendations, you didn't double check the recommendations and the wheels fit, but not like you would like them too?

Is that about right?

Darren

[ZZ3ElCamino]

Not to poke at the hornets nest, but seems like you should have "measured twice cut once". You being the owner of the car.

Hang in there Jon, you can't please everyone

[DriverzInc]

Originally Posted by Fluid Power

So what is the beef? Jon made recommendations, you didn't double check the recommendations and the wheels fit, but not like you would like them too?

Is that about right?

Darren

That's EXACTLY RIGHT.

[jocko124]

Originally Posted by DriverzInc

As everyone can see, I have been responding to his PM's, so I'm not ignoring the guy, but he's using the forum to put pressure on me to eat widening his rear wheels for free saying its my fault his 10" wheels in the back and his 8" wheels in the front don't "fit", and I think they do. Sorry you could have gone wider, but they don't rub, and all of sudden I'm the BAD GUY.

But I do have my side of the story to tell.

Quite frankly, I'm very, very tired of guys like Lee, and I'm thinking its time to hang it up. After all we've done to help out as much as we can, sometimes you just can't win.

[/QUOTE]

It's always amazing to me when people don't have time to call me (as we agreed you would today when I called you yesterday and you said "Lets talk some more tomorrow. I just don't have the energy for it right now) but have all the time to post on the internet. And it's understandable that customers that have paid you almost $5k can become very tiring. As long as people understand that you guarantee nothing on wheel fitment and if they run into an issues based on your recommendations they're SOL, I'm good. We can just rack this up to your "over the top approach to customer service."

[DriverzInc]

It's always amazing to me when people don't have time to call me (as we agreed you would today when I called you yesterday and you said "Lets talk some more tomorrow. I just don't have the energy for it right now) but have all the time to post on the internet. And it's understandable that customers that have paid you almost $5k can become very tiring. As long as people understand that you guarantee nothing on wheel fitment and if they run into an issues based on your recommendations they're SOL, I'm good. We can just rack this up to your "over the top approach to customer service."[/QUOTE]

I said that when you called me at the end of the day yesterday, right before 5, when I was trying to head out to pick up my daughter from day care.

And,
I haven't posted anything on the internet today until 5:30 PM when Justin called to tell me hey, you better go on the forums and do some reading. Otherwise, I was in the back working my ass off to ship as many wheels as I could today, finishing the re-wire on a customers mustang, and figuring out why another car wouldn't shift into 3rd gear.

And what I did recommend to you does "fit". You're just pissed you can go wider, which I'm still not certain about even after the photos. I think if that rear wheel compresses, and goes up into the wheel well, its going to rub that upper hump that A-bodies have.

[Vegas69]

So, do the wheels rub or not? You do want your wheels closer to the fender lip than the inner fender. How does your suspension articulate?