cheap subframe?

[lil427z]

martz chassis.
rick k

[skatinjay27]

im not saying its crap im not even here to bash them... for me its just gonna take a lot more than someone "saying" thier all about function,and fancy marketing phrase's like "g-machine" to prove to me they really are engineering these with performance at the top of thier list. if they are good...but prove it.

as far as the heidts 2nd yea it did good... but were not talking about a 1st gen either, i mean how much better to you actually think thier car would perform over a stock sub /leaf car???

[Heidts#14]

Originally Posted by skatinjay27

im not saying its crap im not even here to bash them... for me its just gonna take a lot more than someone "saying" thier all about function,and fancy marketing phrase's like "g-machine" to prove to me they really are engineering these with performance at the top of thier list. if they are good...but prove it.

as far as the heidts 2nd yea it did good... but were not talking about a 1st gen either, i mean how much better to you actually think thier car would perform over a stock sub /leaf car???

I am really glad you asked.....

Stock subframe- 2 degrees caster, camber loss

Our subframe- 6-7 degree caster, Increased camber gain (thank you pro-g tall spindle), Increased anti-dive.

Please please please do not confuse this with mustang II geometry. It is FAR from MustangII geometry.

[Teetoe_Jones]

Originally Posted by Heidts#14

I am really glad you asked.....

Stock subframe- 2 degrees caster, camber loss

Our subframe- 6-7 degree caster, Increased camber gain (thank you pro-g tall spindle), Increased anti-dive.

Please please please do not confuse this with mustang II geometry. It is FAR from MustangII geometry.

Got any more detailed specs?

How much negative camber gain in degrees per inch of travel?

What is your total bumpsteer figure? (don't even think about saying zero)

What are your recommended alignment specs for street? How about a race setting?

What is the widest front tire you can run on the frame?

Tyler

[Heidts#14]

Originally Posted by Teetoe_Jones

Got any more detailed specs?

How much negative camber gain in degrees per inch of travel?

What is your total bumpsteer figure? (don't even think about saying zero)

What are your recommended alignment specs for street? How about a race setting?

What is the widest front tire you can run on the frame?

Tyler

Hey Tyler,

Camber gain is -.68 degrees per inch

Bumpsteer .030 inches @ 1"

street set up- minimum 3 degrees caster, -1/4 degree camber, 1/16 toe out, with a 1" swaybar

race set up- minimum 5 degrees caster, -1/2 degree camber, 1/16 to 1/8 toe out, with a 1 1/4" swaybar.

Also I checked out your site and looks like you have some really nice products yourself. Looking forward to share some info with you.

[zcrz]

I love this stuff...this is good info What is the largest tire size for the Heidt's frame?

[David Pozzi]

Originally Posted by ironworks

Heidt's, TCI and Fatman are all based off a suspension design from 30 years ago. The spindle is short, in most of the aftermarket mustang II kits there is no anti dive built into the suspension. The short length of the control arm also limits travel which mean you need a stiffer spring. Plus the camber gain is really fast due to short control arms. Plus they are just made withs maller tubing and therefore not as strong. There are alot of other popular suspensions that have gone by the ways side due what is currently avalible. The C4 corvette stuff, why would you ever run that stuff when the price of a replacement ball joint is more then a brand new control arm with ball joints and bushings and the A arm. The avaliblity of the brakes for the C6 out numbers the C4 10-1.

Technology has come a long ways in the past 10 years and you can see it in the products that are currently avalible on the market. The Mustang II design is like the Small Block chevy it still has its place but there are much better coices to made for the money.

Heidts may have some new products coming out that will set the world on it's ear, but they will ahve to be proven the days of having and old car that has updated suspension that drives like crap are over with, with as far as the bar has been raised in the past 10 years.

I think the Heidt second gen will change some minds, but it will take some time. Their second gen sub uses a taller spindle and works very well. I don't recall what the difference is between their second and first gen subs is. I'd rate a DSE sub as my favorite, I like Morrisons sub a lot, as well as the 21'st Century sub in Bad Penny. Jake's sub is doing very well. The Speed tech sub can use stock parts or aftermarket parts for a stock sub. Could save you money if you already have purchased some A arms, etc.

I do like a modded stock sub and will probably use one on my 67 which I'm finally working on this year. I think the only issue on a stock sub is how wide a front tire you will run and how much modifying you want to do on the inner wheel wells to fit them. On a first gen Camaro, a 275/17 can be fit, CarlC did it, but he runs a very streetable ride height. On a much lower car, It might not fly. A 69 Camaro has 1" to 1.5" more width so maybe more leeway to get it done. If you are happy with a 245 front, then the stock sub is an easy route, but that size tire is going to cost you a little time on the track or autocross, - a few tenths. For competition use, a sub with easily accessable coil over shocks, and splined end antiroll bars is a plus. Light weight spindles and A arms help both on the street and track, but the driver and a lot of other things will make more difference.

Mary did like the Heidt Camaro a lot, it was easy to drive and went fast, it felt a lot like the DSE car. Mary didn't like the feel of the steering box Heidt used.
David

[66LS7]

I am working on setting up the 2nd gen Heidts frame with 275-35-18's on the front should have some more answers coming soon on that.


Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.)1-262-347-9741

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by David Pozzi

I think the Heidt second gen will change some minds, but it will take some time. Their second gen sub uses a taller spindle and works very well. I don't recall what the difference is between their second and first gen subs is. I'd rate a DSE sub as my favorite, I like Morrisons sub a lot, as well as the 21'st Century sub in Bad Penny. Jake's sub is doing very well. The Speed tech sub can use stock parts or aftermarket parts for a stock sub. Could save you money if you already have purchased some A arms, etc.

I do like a modded stock sub and will probably use one on my 67 which I'm finally working on this year. I think the only issue on a stock sub is how wide a front tire you will run and how much modifying you want to do on the inner wheel wells to fit them. On a first gen Camaro, a 275/17 can be fit, CarlC did it, but he runs a very streetable ride height. On a much lower car, It might not fly. A 69 Camaro has 1" to 1.5" more width so maybe more leeway to get it done. If you are happy with a 245 front, then the stock sub is an easy route, but that size tire is going to cost you a little time on the track or autocross, - a few tenths. For competition use, a sub with easily accessable coil over shocks, and splined end antiroll bars is a plus. Light weight spindles and A arms help both on the street and track, but the driver and a lot of other things will make more difference.

Mary did like the Heidt Camaro a lot, it was easy to drive and went fast, it felt a lot like the DSE car. Mary didn't like the feel of the steering box Heidt used.
David

I could not agree with you more and I respect your opinion alot. The fact remains just like you said these guys have alot of time to educate the general public before the will get out from behind the stereotype that they have created and promoted for 20 years. Front suspensions and bolt ons have come a long long ways in the last few years. The marketing that these companies have done and continue to say things like 0 bumpsteer which are not possible. There is going to be something. I'm still of the mind that the best modification you can do to your car is the cheapest, learn how to drive. Then put sticky tires on there. Then you can modify the suspension. 99% of the cars on this site will never be pushed far enough to even be able to tell the difference. The thing about all this auto cross testing is that the race track is a totally different enviorment as far as speeds and forces encountered. You can only tell so much at 35mph.
These subframe comparisons are really just pisssing matches, you could put a solid driver behind the wheel of junk and rookie beginner behind the wheel of the most race prepped car on the planet and the skilled driver will kill them. Everyone knows that the tech install stories are biased, just cuz it is in the magazine does not mean it will be as great as they say. I have done Alot of tech article and can tell you it is about the advertising dollars not about the product. Companies that want to prove something need to put their products in builders hands and see what they say after the install and after they have driven it on the track. I'm building a shop camaro right now to test some of the things I sell and to have a way to show people how things work. When your building a car it is a kind of unknown as to how it will really work until you get it to take it around the block and start tuning on it.

So anybody want to send me their suspension, before I build my own to go behind the 67 Camaro we started on a few weeks ago.

[chevyIIpost]

This is great stuff!! These are questions and comments that have been rolling around in my mind for quite some time now. Keep this thread rolling and alive. You guys with shops and real world experience please keep spreading some of your knowlege. Is any one offering or willing to do freelance suspension analysis that has the experience to back up there work??