At A crossroads on whether or not to go Hydraboost

[BBC71Nova]

Interesting discussion. I have manual on my FFR and they are fine. It is 2k lbs though . I'm undecided about which way to go with the Nova. I took the OE power setup off long ago when the plan was a street/strip car. Then I found Lat-G . I knew it would be unlikely I'd pull enough vacuum to run power brakes. The Hydraboost seemed viable. There are even a few guys using the same setup on their FFR. Admittedly the recent crash of that Nova raises some concerns. I do think that is still an unlikely even though. Like anything, know the risks and move on/mitigate.

I also find this Nova crash it an interesting case study of sorts. Take Hydraboost with what I perceive as a good reputation for addressing a common want/need in the aftermarket. Then one high profile accident related to brakes happens, and almost immediately it is on many auto related forums being discussed/questioned. Marketing peeps really have to be on their toes to handle the efficiency of today's social media outlets.

John

[Teetoe_Jones]

I have a manual car. Everything is manual- brakes, steering, transmission, windows, door locks. You have to drive the damn thing.

The pedal pressure for my manual brakes is about 80lbs. That's only 25 more than a vacuum assisted car and I will pop your eyeballs out of your head and slow the earth's rotation when I use my Alcons to their full ability. My car is not super light either at 3300lbs. Sounds like that Chevelle was not setup to its full potential.

I love Hydroboost and would run one in a heartbeat if I had P/S in my car. They rule. But so do manual brakes.

Tyler

[Mick Mc]

Originally Posted by rogue

My car is a non power steering car with 13" Brakes up front and 12" Brakes in the rear. Usual Suspect conversion kits from Ricks...

I'm not getting enough power from the booster to the brakes and cannot get the car to lock up the tires unless I pump up a lot of pressure before a hard brake....

Recently saw that crash at the autocross of the car that crashed due to the engine stalling and hydroboost failing and it got me thinking. I'm going to get some vacuum readings off my stock zz502 this weekend and see if I'm getting enough vacuum to run a booster.

If I have enough Vacuum should I just run a dual diaphram 8" Booster or should I bite the bullet and do a hydraboost setup and add power steering as well...

$1800 or so vs $350 or so... Pretty big price difference.

I've heard from a few people the zz502 doesn't put out much vacuum. Will see on saturday.

Manual brakes work great, BUT like every thing else they need to be set up correctly.
What car are we talking about?
If you get the pedal ratio correct the brakes will work great.

For example there is a huge difference in pedal ratios of Camaros and Chevelles and power and non-power.
Manual can be made to work, but you need to do the math.
A power set up is very forgiving. If the ratio is incorrect or the master cylinder is under or over sized the power sort of covers it up.

Your system sounds like there are other issues first to deal with.

Find a dirt road and see if you can lock up the rear brakes.

My guess is there is something else in the system that needs fixing.

A good brake bleeding is the first place to start. If you're a little unsure about bleeding take it to a brake shop, most of them have a very cool 'power bleeder'. Paul from Hydratech has a great article on his website about bleeding brakes (Hydra-boost systems are very sensitive to bleeding issues).

Take a look at the brake pedal itself. Are there several holes for the rod that goes to the master cylinder? Which hole is being used?

Take a look at all of the brake lines, are they stock or aftermarket, are they rubber or stainless steel, are they smashed or twisted. The brake line that runs under the engine next to the crossmember is notorious for getting beat up, and gets hot too.
If you have flexable lines at each wheel, how long are they and are they braided stainless steel. Are they -3 or -4?


You say "your not getting enough power from the booster" which booster and master cylinder are you running now?

If the car is older, does it have the combination valve, or is it the later model with a proportioning valve? If you purchased the booster and master cylinder together I assume it had a proportioning valve already plumbed?

Mick

[Mick Mc]

The Nova crash

Something seems wrong.
The engine dies, and the brakes don't work?

Did the engine die and the driver pump the brakes a bunch and it still did not stop?
Hydra-Boost will always give you a few more pedal pushes, thats what the nitrogen reserve is for. No brake system would be designed and mass produced and installed on cars and very large trucks and sold to the public without some sort of safety feature in case the engine died.

Maybe the engine died, he was trying to turn the car and stomp on the brake pedal all at the same time and in the blink of an eye he hit the barrier, I could believe that.
But the engine died and no brakes and he hit the barrier, I don't believe that.

As the late Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story".
I'm waiting for the rest of the story.



Mick

[DRJDVM's '69]

In the turn he crashed on, there wasnt alot of extra space..... there was a small S-curve and then a long sweeping turn left....... he went straight rather than make the sweep. The course was pretty small and tight and the barried in that corner wasnt far off the track.

When I did my '69 the guys at BAER convince me there was no need to get power brakes.... they make the pedal feel easier but dont stop the car any better.

On the Cuda I am planning on the hydroboost

[ironworks]

Man one guy has a trouble with his car and now nobody wants power brakes. The Ford Mustang comes or came with hydroboost for a long time. Alot of heavyduty diesel trucks come with hydroboost. There has been no massive recall. If you watch the pedal camera they install in the road race cars for TV, Say Nascar at Watkins Glen, The drivers give the manual brake an initial pump to check the brakes and set them up to for the turn before they really get on them.

I was at the autocross on friday and I saw them testing the track in the supernova and the car has a fuel issue on left hand turns. Whether it is the carb or the suction line on the tank who knows. The bottom line is when your doing an autocross event in that manner and running hard like that you are right on the edge of disaster with those stupid concrete or water barriers. One slight mistake and you in the barriers. If it was any other autocross event not a car show there would be space and it would be no big deal. The course they had this weekend, I believe was the biggest yet and kinda tight in that corner. On the turn Ty had his brush with the barrier. I don't think the brakes failed totally, he has a less ratio since he has the assist and the track was so tight there was no room to go since he was pushing it hard and the track was so fast.

When you push cars hard things break, if things are not stress your not pushing hard enough. I'm surprised this in the first and only incident with damage.

just my 2 cents, I have manual brakes in some cars and will have assist brakes in others. They each have there application when set up properly.


Rodger

[Blake Foster]

Both of these have manual brakes Pauls (the green one) has Wilwood superlite 4 piston front and Dynalite 4 piston rear with a Wilwood 1" master.
and it stops, you can lock it up but it is actually easier to modulate when they lock up over say the TransAm we did that has Hydroboost. My Car ( the white/grey one) is a drag car and runs the wilwood 10.75" 4 piston front and 11" 4 piston rear with a wilwood 7/8" master ( i wanted more line pressure to hold the car in the burn out box on the line lock so that is why the smaller master) it weighs 3200 with me. and it stops from 137mph. i dont even have a prop valve in it, i have had 4 drag cars with different brake systems the last one was a super comp 2000 mustang with the same brake system as my camaro and it would stop from 168 mph no problem.
Scott i agree with who ever said the Chevelle brake system must not have been set up correctly.
the other thing to consider is how "YOU" like the brakes to feel, maybe the guy who owned the chevelle was an ape and had really strong legs??? i tell guys all day long that you may have to change tha master a couple times to get the "Feel" correct for "YOU"
theres .02 more

[Mick Mc]

Originally Posted by Mick Mc

Manual brakes work great, BUT like every thing else they need to be set up correctly.
What car are we talking about?
If you get the pedal ratio correct the brakes will work great.

For example there is a huge difference in pedal ratios of Camaros and Chevelles and power and non-power.
Manual can be made to work, but you need to do the math.
A power set up is very forgiving. If the ratio is incorrect or the master cylinder is under or over sized the power sort of covers it up.

Your system sounds like there are other issues first to deal with.

Find a dirt road and see if you can lock up the rear brakes.

My guess is there is something else in the system that needs fixing.

A good brake bleeding is the first place to start. If you're a little unsure about bleeding take it to a brake shop, most of them have a very cool 'power bleeder'. Paul from Hydratech has a great article on his website about bleeding brakes (Hydra-boost systems are very sensitive to bleeding issues).

Take a look at the brake pedal itself. Are there several holes for the rod that goes to the master cylinder? Which hole is being used?

Take a look at all of the brake lines, are they stock or aftermarket, are they rubber or stainless steel, are they smashed or twisted. The brake line that runs under the engine next to the crossmember is notorious for getting beat up, and gets hot too.
If you have flexable lines at each wheel, how long are they and are they braided stainless steel. Are they -3 or -4?


You say "your not getting enough power from the booster" which booster and master cylinder are you running now?

If the car is older, does it have the combination valve, or is it the later model with a proportioning valve? If you purchased the booster and master cylinder together I assume it had a proportioning valve already plumbed?

Mick

I still think you have a basic brake system problem.

If it is a Chevelle, there are two different holes on the brake pedal arm.
One for power brakes and one for manual brakes.
Which hole is the rod in?

If I remember correctly Chevelle has a much better pedal leverage ratio than a Camaro, so all things being equal the Chevelle should be, leverage wise, eaiser (less pedal effort) to stop. If you're a big burly man then you should be able to test the shoulder straps at any time...

WHAT MASTER CYLINDER AND BOOSTER IS ON THE CAR NOW!?

Mick

[mazspeed]

I'm now a fan of the hydroboost system. Before we had so many problems with it, but once you get it to work properly, oh boy. You guys that have no assist, try one before you say that not having assist gives you the same power, just with more foot pressure. It doesn't. I'm thinking when the plumbing is not correct, it won't have a reserve. Mine did the same thing once it died and I lost my brakes, but when it was plumbed right, it died and I still had my brakes. I think maybe it's all in the set up. If you're building a car with hydroboost, set it up, and test it by shutting off the car in some parking lot where you have room to stop if the brakes fail. You should test it before being on the streets. But the system is really incredible.

[Musclerodz]

If you want to know about Hydroboost and track time, talk to Jake. He has been running one on his race car and testing our new reservoir for us at this time.