With more PT cars being tracked is it changing PT vendors product offerings?

[monza]

Originally Posted by rogue

Muscle cars aren't about luxury, they're about riding lightning and turning money into heat, adrenaline, noise and melted rubber. They always have been and always should be.

To refine a muscle car is a sin. I can understand AC, power steering, comfy seats. But to expect modern car comfort and "get in and go" functionality out of one seems to go against the mere purpose of the vehicle.

Then again, I'm a guy stuffing a 170whp Yamaha R1 with a sequential gearbox in a 1970 mini, so I have a few screws loose myself.

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend.

I have to disagree. Not to side track the thread, but your always bitter about cars that happen to have some creature comforts. My car is not cute, my wife is. I love your car but why slag a car with a killer stereo, etc? I love music and cars! Power windows why not... it's pimp and adds a few pounds, whatever? Maybe you should look again at what site your posting on and what defines a Pro Touring car. You don't like shinny paint I do.

[evilzee28]

Dane, thanks for bringing some good reasoning to the board, excellent points raised.

cheers....Nige

[Stuart Adams]

The hp numbers that I am referring to are not at the wheels. Just motor dyno numbers that most can relate to. 700 to 800 at the wheels is not what I'm talking, I tried to drive a car with 800 at the whheels, lol.

I guess I should have just said I've noticed the cars being built now have more hp and a bigger front tire!

[rogue]

Originally Posted by monza

I have to disagree. Not to side track the thread, but your always bitter about cars that happen to have some creature comforts. My car is not cute, my wife is. I love your car but why slag a car with a killer stereo, etc? I love music and cars! Power windows why not... it's pimp and adds a few pounds, whatever? Maybe you should look again at what site your posting on and what defines a Pro Touring car. You don't like shinny paint I do.

I'm sorry did I slag your car or anyone elses? Comparing your car to a lexus or an AMG is an insult? I'd think thats the compliment you'd be going for with a build like that. You've added power everything, leather everything, AC. Its a luxury automobile with performance, like an AMG. I apologize if you take this as insult.

My opinion on what a muscle car is and isn't varies from yours, thats all.

To assume I hate shiny paint is silly. I'm not a rat rodder here.

[70rs]

I think it is safe to say we all want our cars to perform. If that includes the AC system performing on a hot day....so be it. No, I am not going to buy a Prius Dane.

The parts rolling out to market these days are getting better all the time. And seem to be leaning in the direction of serious street and track performance. But there will always be a big difference between a dedicated track car and the components used to build it and a "traditional" PT car. But the line between them is getting more and more fuzzy every year (from a strictly performance standpoint). Meaning, the PT cars are posting better lap times, higher skid pad numbers, shorter stopping distances. But as they do this they lose the "street" comfort and daily driver ease of use.
So how far do you take it before you turn it into a track car?

[rogue]

Originally Posted by 70rs

I think it is safe to say we all want our cars to perform. If that includes the AC system performing on a hot day....so be it. No, I am not going to buy a Prius Dane.

The parts rolling out to market these days are getting better all the time. And seem to be leaning in the direction of serious street and track performance. But there will always be a big difference between a dedicated track car and the components used to build it and a "traditional" PT car. But the line between them is getting more and more fuzzy every year (from a strictly performance standpoint). Meaning, the PT cars are posting better lap times, higher skid pad numbers, shorter stopping distances. But as they do this they lose the "street" comfort and daily driver ease of use.
So how far do you take it before you turn it into a track car?

We all build our cars for our own purposes, whether it be show queen, cruise night car, or track monster. This thread however is about PT cars that are tracked. Everything I've ever read says that anything with a hoop or cage should not be driven on the street. Unless there are rigid bucket seats with proper harnesses used at all times and proper padding on the cage.

Lots of cars on these forums break that general rule of safety. My own included with its half-assed 5 point belt harnesses and lack of hoop at all. A dedicated track car should have rigid buckets, a full cage, fire system, depending on how 'into' the hobby you may be. A certain trans am on this forum is properly setup for track use, and beyond that!

Any time I see a street car with reclining seats and a hoop/cage I think of all the advice given to me by track instructors. Recipe for serious injury or worse yet death on the street from a minor fender bender. I'm walking the fine line of swapping out my comfy reclinable recaros for some trans am styled vintage rigid buckets and a proper cage or hoop. I'll use the recaros for the Mini.

Of course this is all advice from the safety nazis. We can all take it or leave it with a grain of salt.

I've left it ages ago, but given all my health issues, I'm considering a full cage, halon system and proper buckets. Last thing I need is an accident to cause me even more pain. Dick Guldstrands eyes went wide open when we started discussing what I do with my own car and laptimes, and the first words out of his mouth were "You need a cage."

I'm very close to pulling the trigger to full time track monster thats street legal. 5 point belts, a cage and buckets on the street SUCK, but for that amount of safety on the track its a sacrifice. You just have to properly pad the cage, and actually USE the belts as intended every time you get in the vehicle. No exceptions.

[rogue]

And hey, nothings wrong with a prius. They good good MPG like the LSX

k I'm done stewing the pot, I don't want to get punched in the face at el toro if I make it down.

[70rs]

Originally Posted by rogue

And hey, nothings wrong with a prius. They good good MPG like the LSX

k I'm done stewing the pot, I don't want to get punched in the face at el toro if I make it down.

It's all good Dane. Having input from everyone is what this forum is all about right? I know I appreciate everyones input even if it goes against my own opinion. Most of us are very open minded here and appreciate others advice and opinions.
I know I have A LOT to learn and discussions like these offer me a ton of great info.

[NOT A TA]

I lurk here a lot reading threads like this and rarely speak up. Danes been way out on a limb by himself lately so I figure nows a good time to chime in. Just may end up wishing wishing I had a fire suit!

During a conversation with Johnny Hunkins while he was shoting my car for PHR back in '05 he recommended I join the LATERAL-G forum. He explained that this is where guys with cars like mine that were used on track would be. You know.....G machines. He was wrong.... Hardly any of the forum members cars were used on track at that time and although there was always talk about getting cars on track and building cars that would eventually be used on track the reality was that hardly anyone had actually driven their cars (at speed) on a full size road race track. Yes there were a couple but very very few and most of those were owned by companies not individuals. Heck, most of the cars owned by forum members didn't even run! So I wondered, "Where's the LATERAL-G content?"

It's several years later now, and there are more cars being used on track but in comparison to the number of members on the forum the percentage of those who actually use their car on full size tracks is still very small. I stopped inviting people from forums to road track days because no one has ever showed up. In the past 6 years there was only one track day I went to where any other PT/G-machine type cars showed up. I put 2 wheels off twice last year and 4 wheels off once, how many members even had their car on a track? Nevermind pushing the limits! Not very many.


I have to applaud people like Bill Howell for getting more people to take their cars out and actually drive them in some type of event. Without the leadership, time, and money invested by people like Bill we wouldn't have the rising popularity of the events geared toward the PT/G-machine crowd. This is a good thing and I've been hoping it'll get some people to step up and bring their cars out to track days. It would be fun to run with a bunch of 60's and 70's style cars instead of the typical modern cars I run with at track days.

If someone here owns a Prius but has never been on a full size track, take the Prius! You'll learn how to stay on "the line" better, and more quickly than with a huge horsepower car. Danes probably right, a Miata with a good driver could spank most of the car/driver forum members on most road tracks. I'll be the first to admit more than a few passed me when I started! (now only occasionally! LOL) If you take the Prius it'll really get you to want to bring your PT/G-machine out there!

You don't NEED big power, or NEED big brakes, or NEED huge rubber, or NEED less weight, or NEED the latest trick suspension, to get out on track. The simple truth is that a stock ordinary car is better than most people are on track until they get some instruction and track time. Got a sporty daily driver? Take the next 500 bucks you were going to spend on your project car and use it to go to a HPDE event weekend at a road track. You'll have a blast and come away a much better driver!

I rented a 4 dr 4 cylinder Cobalt with an automatic and ran it at Road Atlanta one weekend. I learned a lot driving what would be considered a "momentum" car and by the end of the weekend I could drive almost the whole track with the pedal to the floor lifting only 5 times each lap. And yes they do have a speed limiter, it's at 99 MPH! The next time I took my Firebird I was smoother on the track.

This forum along with similar forums seem to be becoming more and more about what "looks" like a car that can perform on track, rather than cars that are actually going to be used on track. There's more chatter about car shows and stance than track days and what tires work best.

As for the OPs question about vendors changing products because more cars are tracked, it doesn't appear that way to me. To me, it appears like most new products are more for looks than function. When was the last time a wheel manufacturer came out with new wheels and announced the reduced weight or increased strength to enhance performance as selling features? Lots of the billet parts sold weigh more than the stuff they're being used to replace, but they do look cool! LOL (anyone running my billet centercaps can take them off on track. LOL). Since the majority of cars don't get used on track there's really no reason for vendors to sell products that are more track oriented. There's just not many people using parts for those purposes. As long as they "look" like they would be good on track and seem to increase the "seat of the pants" feel, they'll sell.

While I'm on a soapbox talking about track days let me remind everyone that taking a PT G-machine type car to the track regularly costs money. I don't want to deter anyone, but many people don't think about it when they're building their "dream" car. The reality of how much expense is involved sets in quick once you start going to tracks. Sure you know there's an entry fee and ya there's maybe some travel costs involved and possibly a hotel but the little things add up just like when you're doing a project. I kept track of the expenses for a couple years and it averages about a thousand dollars a day for me which included tracks where I drove the car to and from the track while eating/sleeping at home as well as tracks I trailered to, stayed in hotels, and ate out. I know there's folks who will say "I could do it cheaper than that" however I'm just saying, "Thats what it cost me" in additional expenses over a period of time. Pad wear, tire wear, rotor wear, fluid swaps, trailer maintenance, race gas, parking expenses, tolls, and on and on all add up. And I didn't include things like helmets that get outdated or harnesses that get outdated and won't pass tech after a couple years. If you aren't willing to spend a grand a day and also realize you may ball the car up and total it with (probably) no insurance coverage, you shouldn't think about building your car for track use, just build a cool street car and if you go to an entry level event or two it'll be fine. Try to be honest with yourself about what the car is really going to be used for before you get in deep building a car for track use that may never see a track. Cages/bars harnesses etc. are a pain on the street and if you don't really need them for track use they're not worth the hassle and expense. Most entry level HPDEs don't require anything more than a normal car has, other than a helmet. Convertibles require a roll bar.

Auto-X is cool (yes, I've done it). But the short courses seem better suited to little cars without huge power, and again, driver technique trumphs sophisticated cars with inexperienced drivers. If you've got a big power car it needs room to stretch its legs! Take it to a big track!

The original question in this thread was about whether more cars being tracked has changed PT vendors offerings. I don't really see it. If you look at the list of site sponsors on the left you can see what forum members are most likely spending their money on. If there were a lot of track guys here there'd be data aquisition companies, Lap Timers, race car products companies, Fire & Safety equipment companies etc. listed, but its mostly drivetrain, suspension, brakes, appearance, and comfort equipment oriented companies advertising.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

with all those comments wilding out in here...


THAT is why i made The Streetfighters..

I(as politically incorrect) for one mostly agree with Rogue on much of the issue.. BUT.. i love FUEL with all its technological glory to death.
I think the only thing on a car that could be pretty and still the car will be bad ass IS the paintjob.. but thats as far as i go..

thats why Streetfighters are the punkrock of Pro Touring..

the original protouring to me was modern upgrades that make the car PERFORM.. then secondly threw in creature comforts..

when they started doing streetrod interiors and rediculous wheels and just looking the part they are ONE step closer to putting a crybaby doll on the front fender..

...rather than a scratch from a cone.


something that i personally respect more than a trophy at World of wheels for..."Best Protouring"