ultimate pro touring car discussion?

[nvr2fst]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

It's sitting in my garage.... I wouldn't change anything.

I agree with Todd, except mines sitting in Ironworks garage. Wouldn't change anything so far, at least not to rattle Rodger's cage.

[coolwelder62]

Are we building a real pro touring car or a real race car.Do we want the car to be able to compete w/ cars like Bad Penny,Mary Pozzi's73 camaro.Ryan Mathews in DSE's 69 camaro,Jackass,Mark Steilow's new 69 or Brian Finch's 70 camaro. These are all top notch G-machine's.And could only be faster w/ maybe a Boris said behind the wheel. Or are we going to build a car like an Aussie V8 super car.????

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by coolwelder62

Are we building a real pro touring car or a real race car.Do we want the car to be able to compete w/ cars like Bad Penny,Mary Pozzi's73 camaro.Ryan Mathews in DSE's 69 camaro,Jackass,Mark Steilow's new 69 or Brian Finch's 70 camaro. These are all top notch G-machine's.And could only be faster w/ maybe a Boris said behind the wheel. Or are we going to build a car like an Aussie V8 super car.????

Yes and Yes! This thread could give people some trick ideas if it continues. Keep it coming!

[Vegas69]

This is the perfect thread for me to get something off my mind. It's my opinion that some are headed in the wrong direction in their thinking of building the "ideal" pro-touring car. One of the best things about my car is its ability to cruise in comfort on a lazy Sunday reliably and earn it's respect on the race track. Sometimes in the same day. I feel I've pushed my car about as far as I'd like. In most cases, a better race car means a compromise in the other arena. I'm sure alot of guys are wondering what the hell I'm talking about since they've never even turned the key in their project. I'll give you some examples.........
[LIST]
A full cage or partial that compromises your comfort of makes it unsafe without a helmet
No sound deadener to save weight(Rattles, overly noisy ride)
High spring rates to limit body roll(I went to coil overs and adjustable shocks to get rid of the leaf spring ride) My car rides so nice...
Simple functional systems of any car(door handles, hidden wiper motors, heater, stereo)
Race belts(Will you really wear a 5 point harness on the street?)
Fixed back seats[LIST]

There are many more that I'm guilty of in the drive to have a capable street and race car. Once a car is no fun to cruise, it's a race car and Pro-Touring is dead in my opinion. Maybe I'm taking it personal and feel it's all about the racing end of the spectrum. These are fair race cars. Hell, I ran within 5 seconds of that crazy Porsche super car on the road course at El Toro. My point is, the faster I get, their are choices that can be made that compromise the function of a pro-touring car.

[Ron in SoCal]

I don't disagree at all Tood. When we start talking about 'unlimited budgets' this thread sorta turns into a what if discussion, as if we were sitting in your garage shotgunning beers. My build is nowhere close to what I described above. It'll never be Penny or OneLap. I wanna drive it and go to Street Car events!

The esscence of PT won't die, because most guys will reach just to build 'em something like you and Finch!

Ron

P.S. I'm thinking Dynamat extreme...

[phillym5]

I honestly would re build my car...
I take my lady out to eat with it... drop my daughter off at school.... get 20 mpg cruisin at 80mph on the freeway... 13mpg in the city... carve through the back roads with the vipers and porsche's... and keep up with if not take over the Busa's on the freeway. All weighing in at 3800 lbs... bumping my stereo system... sitting in traffic with no over heating worries....ect...ect...ect.

[Matt@BOS]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

This is the perfect thread for me to get something off my mind. It's my opinion that some are headed in the wrong direction in their thinking of building the "ideal" pro-touring car. One of the best things about my car is its ability to cruise in comfort on a lazy Sunday reliably and earn it's respect on the race track. Sometimes in the same day. I feel I've pushed my car about as far as I'd like. In most cases, a better race car means a compromise in the other arena. I'm sure alot of guys are wondering what the hell I'm talking about since they've never even turned the key in their project. I'll give you some examples.........
[LIST]
A full cage or partial that compromises your comfort of makes it unsafe without a helmet
No sound deadener to save weight(Rattles, overly noisy ride)
High spring rates to limit body roll(I went to coil overs and adjustable shocks to get rid of the leaf spring ride) My car rides so nice...
Simple functional systems of any car(door handles, hidden wiper motors, heater, stereo)
Race belts(Will you really wear a 5 point harness on the street?)
Fixed back seats[LIST]

There are many more that I'm guilty of in the drive to have a capable street and race car. Once a car is no fun to cruise, it's a race car and Pro-Touring is dead in my opinion. Maybe I'm taking it personal and feel it's all about the racing end of the spectrum. These are fair race cars. Hell, I ran within 5 seconds of that crazy Porsche super car on the road course at El Toro. My point is, the faster I get, their are choices that can be made that compromise the function of a pro-touring car.

What he said...
We're all talking about building cars that are great at everything and yet here we are going back and forth about the topic because its pretty impossible to make the ultimate, "I'm good at everything" car. Some cars are more race car, some more street car, and some are more show car. What is perfect for one person won't be for the next. For example, Bad Penny is straddling the line of being too much of a race car for me, but Steve is so madly in love with her that he can look passed her faults (i.e. climbing in and out, which is not easy) . Personally I'd rather have a car like the DSE '69 that is practically a beater with one hell of a suspension and drive train. On the other end of the spectrum towards show car, there's my Camaro. There are times I wish I could just leave it in a parking lot without worrying, or kill cones without guilt.

Matt

[coolwelder62]

My car is every thing you guys just talked about.No dyna mat,fixed back seats,full cage,big sway bars, stiff springs,super wide tires that follow every rut in the road, load exhaust,no A/C,no radio,chrome moly rod ends in the suspension,It's turned out just the way I wanted it. It's fun to drive,and w/ a good wheel man in it will hold it's own on the track Now I want to build a car that is what Todd has.Smooth & quiet ride,but yet able to kick butt at auto-x & track days.and look good at a show & shine,Get in it and drive it the whole power tour in 2011.A real pro-touring car is Jackass,or Brian Finches camaro. Those car finished in the top 5 at Optima in Nov. and they are drivien hundredes of miles on the roads.And looked good doing it.For me I would want Kyle Tuckers 70 camaro.I love everything about the car,chiped paint and all.Scott.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I am flattered Project Unfair brought this up. And I want to be clear, John and I have NO illusions of Unfair being the Ultimate Pro Touring Car. It will be the fastest all around though! I have some ideas for the Ultimate "Pro Touring Car", but will save that for next time! i will say the focus will be on the "Touring" portion in a car that hauls ass.

I agree with what Todd is saying. I am not a "Street Fighter" guy at all. I have a street / drag car. And yes I can cruise it to Steak and Shake. Yes I have done the RTTHs 45 mile cruise 3 times WITH the Pro Touring cars. And hell yes, my knuckles are sore as hell from holding on!

In reference to what Todd says, I agree 100%. We WILL NOT give up comfort to achieve our goals. But Unfair WILL NOT be AS comfy as I have made many of my projects. Some where between II Much and EmtpyNest is a happy medium we can achieve without giving up our performance goals.

Originally Posted by Vegas69

A full cage or partial that compromises your comfort of makes it unsafe without a helmet We are working on some stuff on the cage to make it safer, keep your head away from it. We also will take full advantage of legal pin in bars where allowed. I HATE climbing over door bars!

No sound deadener to save weight(Rattles, overly noisy ride) Says the man with 3" dump exhaust! LOL! We will dynamat the floor, we are not worried about 72LBS weight only 8" Off the ground in the middle of the car. We actually like that idea. Moves the COG down. That is called good weight!

High spring rates to limit body roll(I went to coil overs and adjustable shocks to get rid of the leaf spring ride) My car rides so nice... We will use spring rates within a few LBS of yours. And a 3 link rides SO NICE, even better then a 4 link.

Simple functional systems of any car(door handles, hidden wiper motors, heater, stereo) Agreed. Wipers are mandatory, if John had a regret on II Much it was deleting the wipers. We are hiding the wiper motor, but I see no issue with that. I HATE no door handle cars! Heat, yes we need heat. You did not mention A/C (Clears throat). I feel A/C is a requirement also. Little know the fact. The shipping weight for a complete Vintage Air Gen IV system is 58LBS! that is a 58LBS weight penalty we will gladly take. Stereo, hell yes. We will have a removable system like John just had installed in his ZO6 that plays through 4 speakers through a high powered deck and has a amplified subwoofer and amp we can quick disconnect, remove for racing and still have tunes. So total weight for the stereo, about 15LB without the 100LB subwoofer. I liken this to removing the spare tire and tool box most do for racing.

Race belts(Will you really wear a 5 point harness on the street?) Actually, Yes. Sort of. I do wear 4 of the 5 belts on the street. I do admit no using the submarine belt on the street. but I find 4 point belts more comfortable then a 3 point belts.

Fixed back seats I am with you. We got to be able to recline on the street. And my racing position is much different then my cruising position. We have a plan to have both with a simple bracket we will bolt in the back rest to the cross bar to make the recliner fixed back at the track.

[legend]

modern production cars such as the M5 and AMG mecedes can cross continents at crazy high speeds, in full comfort with the aircon on etc. and still hang with a lot of "sports cars" on the track

I guess my idea of what it is all about is something that gives you loads of fun on track or strip, but you can still take your lady out to dinner in without her hating the journey

however i do keep thinking up "what if" ideas, and i love the idea of 40-50 yr old cars killing modern machinery on track.