...

Go Back   Lateral-g Forums > Technical Discussions > Chassis and Suspension
User Name
Password



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-17-2006, 03:29 PM
Musclerodz's Avatar
Musclerodz Musclerodz is offline
Lateral-g Supporting Vendor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: washington, ok
Posts: 4,286
Thanks: 22
Thanked 164 Times in 95 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1969LS1
Maybe you could explain the advantage of a PHR over the triangulated upper links?

Also, why would a PHR be more advantageous than a Watt's link?

Knowledge is power
Triangulated upper links are a version of the satchell link rear. The angled links should preferably be below the rear for several reasons. One, with the angled links on top, they are usually very short and will bind with very little movement. if they are on bottom they are much longer and less likely to bind. You can cure some of the bind with the use of Jonny Joints. the second reason I have been told is with the angled links on bottom, it lowers roll center height but not sure why. Dennis or Marcus can answer that.

Panhard Bars are better for packaging around exhaust systems. Watt's links are better centering devices for the rear in that they don't allow the rear to move side to side at all. Panhards with enough travel move in a an arc which is side movement. Disadvantage of Watt's is getting the exhaust out the rear effectively. Hope this helps and if I am wrong on anything please correct me. I am a young grass hopper still in training.

Mike
__________________
Mike Redpath
Musclerodz & Customz
facebook page
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-17-2006, 04:20 PM
Steve1968LS2's Avatar
Steve1968LS2 Steve1968LS2 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA
Posts: 5,534
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musclerodz
Triangulated upper links are a version of the satchell link rear. The angled links should preferably be below the rear for several reasons. One, with the angled links on top, they are usually very short and will bind with very little movement. if they are on bottom they are much longer and less likely to bind. You can cure some of the bind with the use of Jonny Joints. the second reason I have been told is with the angled links on bottom, it lowers roll center height but not sure why. Dennis or Marcus can answer that.

Panhard Bars are better for packaging around exhaust systems. Watt's links are better centering devices for the rear in that they don't allow the rear to move side to side at all. Panhards with enough travel move in a an arc which is side movement. Disadvantage of Watt's is getting the exhaust out the rear effectively. Hope this helps and if I am wrong on anything please correct me. I am a young grass hopper still in training.

Mike
You and me both.. I learn something everytime I discuss this.

So if the angled bars were moved to the bottom then what would control the rotation of the differential?? (pinion angle)
__________________
"A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

See Bad Penny run the cones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

1971 Chevelle Wagon - Roadster Shop Chassis ProCharged Shafiroff LS and lots of yada yada

1968 Camaro - Project Track Rat - 440 RHS LS
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-17-2006, 05:00 PM
sinned's Avatar
sinned sinned is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: in the dirt...looking for the apex
Posts: 250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Ok, I had a long old response typed up it was “lost”. Here is the abridged version. Converging the lower links is known as a Satchell link and is totally different than C4L the Chevelle and Mustang use. The Satchell link has a much lower RRCH due to the converging link that define the roll center being located below the axle rather that above it.

The only advantage to using a PHB over a Watts link is packaging. A frame mounted Watts link allows RRCH to remain constant through range of motion and has a lower unsprung weight.

Steve, the Satchell link controls pinion movement the same way a C4L does; through use of the the parellel links and somewhat through the angled links.
__________________
Dennis

Last edited by dennis68; 01-17-2006 at 05:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-17-2006, 05:11 PM
Steve1968LS2's Avatar
Steve1968LS2 Steve1968LS2 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA
Posts: 5,534
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis68

Steve, the Satchell link controls pinion movement the same way a C4L does; through use of the the parellel links and somewhat through the angled links.
Gotcha, thought he meant move the triangulated upper links to the bottom.. lol.. that had me perplexed
__________________
"A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

See Bad Penny run the cones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

1971 Chevelle Wagon - Roadster Shop Chassis ProCharged Shafiroff LS and lots of yada yada

1968 Camaro - Project Track Rat - 440 RHS LS
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-17-2006, 06:45 PM
Musclerodz's Avatar
Musclerodz Musclerodz is offline
Lateral-g Supporting Vendor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: washington, ok
Posts: 4,286
Thanks: 22
Thanked 164 Times in 95 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1969LS1
Gotcha, thought he meant move the triangulated upper links to the bottom.. lol.. that had me perplexed
As Dennis said, a true Satchell has the converging links on the bottom. Most if not all the factory converging links are on the top and are very short and is done for packaging and are bad about binding. If they are on the bottom, the converging links can be much longer and less affected by binding through normal suspension movement.

Mike
__________________
Mike Redpath
Musclerodz & Customz
facebook page
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-17-2006, 07:48 PM
Mean 69 Mean 69 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 375
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Rear suspension systems can be tricky little devils, and as usual, the "devil" is in the details.

The roll center of any stick axle suspension depends upon what is controlling the lateral movement of the axle assembly, preventing actually (lateral being side to side, not to be snoot about things). It is a pretty hard thing to describe, it depends entirely upon the given geometry of a particular system. They all work differently, but let's tackle the two in the title.

A parallel four link (or three link, or torque arm setup with parallel links for that matter) depends "entirely" upon the Panhard Bar, or Watt's linkage to resist axle movement in the lateral direction, i.e. under cornering forces. IN this case, the roll center is defined by the intersection of the PHB height (keeping things as simple as possible) with the centerline of the axle, and again, to make things simple, let's assume that the links are parallel in top (plan) view. The roll center is an imaginary point in space that the car will roll about, specifically, the sprung mass of the car, under a given lateral acceleration (cornering force), and it is a very important attribute for certain. More important than where it "is" in a static case (not moving, just sittin' on the curb), at least in my opinion is what it does dynamically. PHB's do a really nice job at controlling the roll center in a dynamic sense, the other "better" solution is a frame mounted Watt's linkage, as Den' mentioned.

A converging four link does things a bit differently. IN this case, the angled arms (usually on the top, as in GM A body, late Mustang, plenty of aftermarket setups), not only control the pinion angle, but they are also responsible for controlling lateral axle movement. To find the roll center of these setups, you need to look at the convergence angle and intersection, and frankly, without a picture, it is really hard to describe. In the case of the GM A body, and also the Mustang (and the derivitives of thes in the aftermarket), they suffer from a really high static roll center, and worse, the roll center moves all over the place. Not only that, but think about it, the upper arms are asked to do two different things at the same time. I am personally not too good at multi-tasking, and these setups aren't in usual practice either. If you have ever driven a later Mustang in anger, there is no question that the back end of the car has come around on you in an abrupt fashion, known as snap oversteer. This occurs when (and because) the upper arms fully compress their suspension bushings, and the system becomes rigid (a trait of ALL four link systems in roll, by the way), and not at the time you'd like.

The Satchell setup is essentially a GM A-Body turned upside down, and it can be made to work pretty darned good. The engineer that designed it is named, get this, Terry "Satchell." It's far better than the other type, because the roll center height is a lot lower, but frankly, it suffers the same binding issues as the other four link systems. It's a bear to package too, the long upper links need to go somewhere, and that means no back seat.

So what do you do? For a street car? Whatever you want, and just do a good job tuning it. They will all work pretty good if you aren't nutso about the last ounce of performance. What's the ultimate solution? There isn't one, it ALL depends upon what you want in terms of packaging, performance, cost, ease of install, tune-ability, appearance, etc.

What would I buy? You're joking, right?
M
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Lateral-g.net