Floater setup--yes or no

[DFRESH]

Originally Posted by 69MSA

Doug, if you have your heart set on those big pretty Baer calipers, go for it. If you think you need a floater, and you want to shell out the cash, get one of those too. Personally, if I were running fixed calipers I'd get one of these floater contraptions, be it Speedway's, or the soon to be released Speed Tech piece), etc. We tend to do what we want in this hobby, because it is exactly that - a hobby. A lot of our decisions are based on what makes us happy and fits our budget. Hell, I buy stuff because it looks cool, it sounds impressively engineered, and it is supposed to work well, (pro touring companies must have good marketing departments ) Anyway you've been around cars long enough to know that no two of our cars are alike, and as such there is no such thing as modern OEM reliability. We can each tell you what works for us, or what doesn't, but I bet that even if you copied one of our exact setups you'd get different results. You've been around cars so long you know there are pros and cons to everything. Picking parts isn't exactly a crap shoot, but everything works a little differently for each unique car.

Anyway, for some reason tonight I felt like summerizing points brought up in most of the floater discussions I've read and adding a few of my own points. haha, here it goes, with named and numbered setups:

1. the purple car version 1: 7/8" manual master cylinders and fixed calipers on conventional axles, i.e. torino big bearings with big wheels. This sucks!

2. the Vegas Special I don't know if there are other things that constitute a "Vegas Special," but we're talking about cars here. 1" master cylinders with tapered bearings and floater calipers. Todd says they're not half bad!Then again, Payback has a ZL1 that, Doug, makes everything on his car a touch better than our little small block low riders.

3. DSE: power booster with big ass fixed calipers and torino bearings. It works? Kyle checks the tolerances on every bearing going into his car because some are manufactured tighter than others. I wish this was an urban legend among the pro-touring community. Actually maybe it is, maybe it will be. Maybe Kyle is trying to psych us all out, but seeing as how he is an engineer, I think inspecting each and every bearing is more likely. Anyway, that s*** is intense - checking EVERY bearing to try and get rid of knock back. Lastly, let's not forget Kyle doesn't need fancy floating axles to beat us. He just drives better than us because he kind of does this for a living now.

4. Finch's King of every event Camaro DSE setup plus a 10lb residual pressure valve. I think it probably still had a little knock back...

5. purple car version 2: manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater from Speedway Engineering. It works, and has been for 7000 miles!

6. "Lateral Dynamic's" Mark's old Camaro that no one remembers This thing probably existed sometime before written history up to 7ish years ago? so we can't be sure if it had manual brakes, power brakes, or Flinstone foot brakes. It probably had Wilwood fixed brakes. It also had a Moser circle track floater. Every time I see Mark he tells me it was garbage, and the the tolerances weren't good.

7. Dead Cat version 2: Newer than Mark's. Manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater by Moser. It works!

8. ZR1 hub based floater It seems to have been invented simultaneously between Chicane and Steilow, kind of like how Newton and Leibniz both independently invented Calculus. Surely this must be revolutionary. Steilow claims it accommodates ABS functionality, stops knock back, and leaking... I think. It even stops leaking? every axle I've had leaks. I need to buy one of these to try out on my next project.

9. What works for Ford... Most new cars have IRS setups. The Mustang still uses a live axle. It also uses power brakes and floating calipers. Even the Grand Am Mustang race cars use that dinky little floating caliper.

10. The Renner mobile: If we all applied the logic of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," perhaps all of us would be running around with drum brakes on our old solid axle vintage cars. Sadly this is not the case, and I shed a tear as you move on from your days of one-legged-jihading it up with those self energizing prototype rear drum brakes. If you post them for sale I want first shot at them since I gave you a deal on that subframe...

*EDIT* 11. ... A pretty Penny How could I forget about Steve's car. If you bought it, you wouldn't have to worry about knock back. He has a 1" manual master cylinder with fixed calipers and tapered bearings. When Currie put in the tapered bearings they made sure to straighten the axle because previous work on it had caused it to warp, I believe.

Other things that may or may not work...
Hydroboost? anyone have experience with hydroboost and knock back?

Also, Stacey now has a Baer floater. Seems like everyone has been getting a few in for the last year and a half, and yet Stacey's car has the only one I've ever seen. we all have every reason to assume that it works, but damn is it expensive.

I'm sure I missed something, so feel free to something, anything...

Matt

Purple Car, second edition---LOL. Great summary and great feedback. With your setup are you able to run the parking brake?

D

[DFRESH]

Originally Posted by Flash68

Whoa whoa whoa... I thought I had to only worry about Todd on this one... now YOU are gonna go there? You BASTAGE!!

You don't post much no more Dougie... but when you do.... you drink Dos Equis?

I do stay thristy my friend--but mostly for Apple Pie.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by clill

My two cents...If you are going to track your car and push it hard I would do a floater. If you are going to street drive your car and maybe hit the track once a year for a fun day I wouldn't worry about it. I hate puck knockback. Jackass has it and it really gets your attention when you are doing 100 mph, hit the brakes and the pedal drops instead of slowing the car. You simply need to hit the pedal again but when you are running out of stopping room it really gets your attention. For any people that don't know what knock back is...When there is slop in the bearings or slop anywhere, the rotor flexes, when it flexes it pushes the piston behind the brake pad back into the cylinder. When you step on the brakes you waste the first push on the brakes just getting that brake pad back out to the rotor. You then hit the brakes again to actually apply the brakes.

This is the most Charley has ever said.... and a technical post as well!!

No knock back on the Mustang.... so do I owe you more money? Or is it that I just can't drive it fast enough....

[DFRESH]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

All I can say is when I ran 5 sessioins at Buttonwillow with 2 year old axle bearings, I had 0 knockback. For once I took the economical route and it works. I do want to switch to a 7/8 master eventually and that could change things. Your real problem is Baer doesn't offer a decent floating caliper. You are forced into a floating rear end if you want 0 knockback. If you aren't in a hurry, give it some time for this new baer setup along with the Speedtech to get some miles under their belts. I also feel if you keep the rear wheel lip where it is currently, you will have less knockback naturally. A 5.25/5.5" BS on a 12" rim looks great but it puts a ton of leverage on a bearing. Matt over at Art Morrison calculated it for me and it is 5 or 10 times greater(Don't remember) than what the bearing was engineered for originally. FYI Have you ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.

Ya, that makes total sense---the more lip the more leverage ability it would have/create along with the tire and its much larger contact patch. I like the approach of not being in a hurry as you know---I have been watching a couple of cars with these setups in them---but like Matt said, everyone is using them a bit differently. James Shipka and Matt---possibly Payton--have the most street miles on their cars at this point with these setups in them. I only want to do this once and not regret it later---would rather go with too much than not enough given future plans for the car--you know how that goes. The thought of what you have described to me (I beleive it was at Optima event when we were there with you car) and Charlie's description of hitting the brakes at that kind of speed and having to pump the pedal---there's just no way I am going to take the chance. Pay now, or pay later.

Doug

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by DFRESH

I do stay thristy my friend--but mostly for Apple Pie.

You guys should appreciate that more if you watch "Moonshiners" on the TV -- I had no idea just how much trouble a guy could get into...

Gawd I'm glad I don't drink (anymore).... so I can still feel my lips.

[Flash68]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

All I can say is when I ran 5 sessioins at Buttonwillow with 2 year old axle bearings, I had 0 knockback. For once I took the economical route and it works. I do want to switch to a 7/8 master eventually and that could change things. Your real problem is Baer doesn't offer a decent floating caliper. You are forced into a floating rear end if you want 0 knockback. If you aren't in a hurry, give it some time for this new baer setup along with the Speedtech to get some miles under their belts. I also feel if you keep the rear wheel lip where it is currently, you will have less knockback naturally. A 5.25/5.5" BS on a 12" rim looks great but it puts a ton of leverage on a bearing. Matt over at Art Morrison calculated it for me and it is 5 or 10 times greater(Don't remember) than what the bearing was engineered for originally. FYI Have you ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.

So I've wondered why my knockback seems to be mininal compared to you other guys with your fancy wheels and I guess this explains it? Maybe I should just keep the damn Vette wheels....

[Vegas69]

Nah, you just don't drive fast enough.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

You guys should appreciate that more if you watch "Moonshiners" on the TV --

Better than that, I think someone here is livin it.

[coolwelder62]

Floater,Yes.

[DFRESH]

Hey, all my favorite theadjackers are here! Greg, Scott, Matt, Skip, Todd & DG---I guess things are back to normal in my world---now, if only IronWorks would say something--I'd feel complete.