OK time for a new rear end suggestions

[MillerBuilt]

Originally Posted by Nativefx

Just read through your link.................

I really DON'T know much about rear ends! May have to read more info to make sure I'm understanding everything, and I KNOW I'll need to find someone who can fabricate whatever I'll need.

I add more comments below as I also "quoted" the post from Ron. Some of these comments are in regards to you product offering and things Ron touched on as well. I'm really hoping I can get some of this figured out, as I have my rear wheels now and need to pull the stock rear end. My other issue to deal with is setting up the mounting on the new rear end for my Ridetch set-up, but MCB told me I can get another set of mounts when I got to this point.

Yes, does get a little complex. And I will concur with the incredibly knowledgeable Ron (for what its worth cuz Im nobody ) in that a "traditional" full floater (Moser, Speedway, etc.) is hands down a stronger/lighter system simply due to the dual tapered bearing design and its being lighter mainly due to its lacking an emergency brake system.
BUT,,, is GM's/SKF's C6 ZR1 or C7 hub like I utilize in my offering strong enough? Mark Stielow seams to think/prove so...

And although it does add some pounds for adding the luxury of having an actual emergency brake (not park brake, but an actual emergency brake,,,, BIG difference), I personally would say weight well added to gain the benefits/street-ability/track performance at the level of a C6 Corvette!

With that said, I have been a BIG fan of dual tapered bearing designs for years and have quite a bit of hands on experience with them as well, and unquestionably are strong/light/great/proven AND are the best choice for "Track Cars" that spend most of their time at tracks,,,, BUT lack what is required for a "true" street car/daily driver IMO.

Although you can add spot calipers, line locks, valves, etc. NONE of these are considered an emergency brake and will do nothing for you should you have a brake failure while actually driving/racing and are not really a street/daily driver solution IMO. I think the word is "compromise" that would be appropriate when making the decision which is best for your car.

Jay

[Nativefx]

Originally Posted by JSM

Yes, does get a little complex. And I will concur with the incredibly knowledgeable Ron (for what its worth cuz Im nobody ) in that a "traditional" full floater (Moser, Speedway, etc.) is hands down a stronger/lighter system simply due to the dual tapered bearing design and its being lighter mainly due to its lacking an emergency brake system.
BUT,,, is GM's/SKF's C6 ZR1 or C7 hub like I utilize in my offering strong enough? Mark Steilow seams to think/prove so...

And although it does add some pounds for adding the luxury of having an actual emergency brake (not park brake, but an actual emergency brake,,,, BIG difference), I personally would say weight well added to gain the benefits/street-ability/track performance at the level of a C6 Corvette!

With that said, I have been a BIG fan of dual tapered bearing designs for years and have quite a bit of hands on experience with them as well, and unquestionably are strong/light/great/proven AND are the best choice for "Track Cars" that spend most of their time at tracks,,,, BUT lack what is required for a "true" street car/daily driver IMO.

Although you can add spot calipers, line locks, valves, etc. NONE of these are considered an emergency brake and will do nothing for you should you have a brake failure while actually driving/racing and are not really a street/daily driver solution IMO. I think the word is "compromise" that would be appropriate when making the decision which is best for your car.

Jay

Jay, I'm not sure I understand the difference between an emergency brake and a park brake? I'm assuming either could be attached to work with the stock pedal, which is why I don't understand the benefit of one over the other?

Wasn't the true floater designed to overcome the stesses placed on single bearings, especially when added load due to cornering? That and problems with the flange ends typically leaking? So the floater moves weight inward and off the very ends of the rearend, while also utilizing duel tapered bearings. So what due they lack for the street car/daily driver?

Sorry for all the questions, as i said I don't know a lot about this and have just been trying to read as much as possible to make sure I make the right choice the first time in order to alleviate any problems in the future.

thanks

[MillerBuilt]

Originally Posted by Nativefx

Jay, I'm not sure I understand the difference between an emergency brake and a park brake? I'm assuming either could be attached to work with the stock pedal, which is why I don't understand the benefit of one over the other?

Wasn't the true floater designed to overcome the stesses placed on single bearings, especially when added load due to cornering? That and problems with the flange ends typically leaking? So the floater moves weight inward and off the very ends of the rearend, while also utilizing duel tapered bearings. So what due they lack for the street car/daily driver?

Sorry for all the questions, as i said I don't know a lot about this and have just been trying to read as much as possible to make sure I make the right choice the first time in order to alleviate any problems in the future.

thanks

No problem on the questions.

A parking brake is not intended for anything but being applied once the car is parked and was not designed to be applied at speed or problems will most likely occur, whereas an actual e-brake can be used at speed in an "emergency" hence the name e-brake.

Items like "spot calipers", "line locks", "in-line ball valves", etc. that are sometimes used on "traditional" full floaters to overcome their street ability shortfall, will only work after the car is at a complete stop, and are mostly fine for the "letting the car warm up stuff" at the track, but would you trust your car on a sloped road with these set-ups, not to mention for any length of time? Will your car be where you left it when you get back? Personally I would not trust the above mentioned in a car that is daily driven and that usually finds itself in scenarios/locations that require a proven set-up that was actually designed/rated to hold your car in the same location it was originally parked...

I know some people may disagree because perhaps they have one of these full floaters outfitted with one of these devices, but for those people,,, I bet if I asked you to take your 100+ thousand dollar car and park it on a steep incline road for 24hrs that you would most likely think twice as these devices are not rated/intended for this and would be an uncertain outcome....

Now with that said there ARE "parking brakes" that will hold on steep incline/declines for periods of time, these types would be like the ones offered in most all Wilwood, Baer, etc. big brake kits. But these are actual brake in drum set-ups similar (but not the same) to the C5/6 e-brake.
With the exception of Baer's full floater, and mine, there are no other floaters that actually incorporate a legit parking/e-brake. (I did not forget the Wilwood offering for the Mod-lite hub, but this .81" rotor would see its death most likely after one track day with aggressive driving so I am not counting).

I have installed on traditional full floaters what I would consider some of the best spot calipers available (Ipsco), and are still questionable in daily driven scenarios IMO. I have also ran many line locks in my day and would rather not trust my car to it based on a daily driver that finds itself in many scenarios that require a full proof parking-brake/e-brake... track in the pits,,, yes,,,, inclined/declined roads in the real world,,, NO.

A floater actually carries the weight of the car out at the hub, and no longer burdens the axle/bearing/seal from torsional flex as a semi-floater does.

It is not that you cannot run a "traditional" style floater on the street because many do. When I referred to a traditional full floater as not being street friendly it was in comparison to my set-up that requires virtually no maintenance and incorporates an e-brake which makes this a very user/street friendly set-up in comparison to most all traditional floaters.

So to recap, IMO if the floater (any ones floater), does not utilize an actual in drum parking brake or even better, an actual e-brake, then I would not consider it a street driven/daily driver set-up that you can fully trust.

Jay

[Ron Sutton]

I concur with Jay on the parking brake. The line lock is a track car trick to eliminate the parking brake weight & friction.

If you want to have a parking brake and run Baer brakes ... I think you can achieve that with eithers Jays C6 end floater or the Baer floater. That at least narrows it down for you.

Best wishes.

[MillerBuilt]

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

I concur with Jay on the parking brake. The line lock is a track car trick to eliminate the parking brake weight & friction.

If you want to have a parking brake and run Baer brakes ... I think you can achieve that with eithers Jays C6 end floater or the Baer floater. That at least narrows it down for you.

Best wishes.

Ron, just outa curiosity. I was wondering what one of the Speedway Floater Hub set-ups weighs that you run on your track cars? I am curious as to what the actual weight savings is.

Snout -
Hub (steel or aluminum? -
Bearings/Races -
Drive Plate (I assume you run steel) -
Studs -
Caliper Brackets/gussets) -

Also if you wouldn't mind?

Rotor Adaptor (steel or Aluminum?) -
Rotor 13"x1.25" -

Jay

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by JSM

Ron, just outa curiosity. I was wondering what one of the Speedway Floater Hub set-ups weighs that you run on your track cars? I am curious as to what the actual weight savings is.

Snout -
Hub (steel or aluminum? -
Bearings/Races -
Drive Plate (I assume you run steel) -
Studs -
Caliper Brackets/gussets) -

Also if you wouldn't mind?

Rotor Adaptor (steel or Aluminum?) -
Rotor 13"x1.25" -

Jay

Hey Jay,
The floater rear end is not lighter than a flange axle rear end ... all other things being equal. The reason to run a floater is safety, bearing longevity, elimination of hub flex & brake knock back. We do a lot to make them light, so they end up pretty close to the weight of a regular flange axle rear end. Sometime they're lighter, depending on what they're being compared to.

I'd have to go find my notes to know what a rear end weighs. The Mod-Lite floater uses a light 10 gauge housing. For the Grand National floaters, we use either a 10 gauge or heavier 7 gauge housing. We typically run the .188" DOM tubes & occasionally run the .125" 4130 tubes. For road course, autocross & street, I prefer the aluminum Mod-Lite hubs & the XHD steel GN drive plates. I dissuade people from running the aluminum drive plates except in high end racing where we can replace them often. The aluminum axle splines wear out too quickly.

For most kits I use Wilwood Spec-37 rotors. For my higher end stuff, we'll run AP rotors. If we're looking at short run cars, we'll go light with a 12.19" x .81" rotor. For long run cars where we need to deal with the heat, we run 1.25" wide rotors in whatever size we pick ... 12.19, 13.06" or 14.00". (FYI - rear brakes run cooler than fronts by about 1/3).

There were no brake kits for floaters that use 13.06" or 14" rotors, so I designed some & had them made. My rotor adapters for the large 13.06" & 14" rotors are made from 6061-T6 & black anodized. They are scalloped for both weight reduction and increased airflow into the rotor.

The caliper brackets welded to the housing are 3/8" thick 1026 steel & we double gusset them on the brakes packages with 13.06" or 14.00" rotors. Speedway Mod-Lite floaters use 18690 Timken bearings rated at 1800# thrust load each. Speedway Grand National floaters use L610549 Timken bearings rated at 2630# thrust load each.

We have some clients that occasionally run 1/2" studs. But ever since we found a good 5/8" fine thread lug nut from Moroso that has a smaller 7/8" hex & 60° conical seat that works with aluminum wheels ... most of my clients run 5/8" fine thread studs.

The Speedway Mod-Lite floaters are complete with hubs, bearings, studs, hardware & axles for $1299, so they're not much more than having a flange axle rear end built. It is safer & eliminates brake knock back.

[Ron in SoCal]

IIRC, my Speedway housing (different than Ron's mod lite above) with the DSE quadralink brackets weighed about 18 lbs lighter than my DSE/ Moser housing.

NASCAR parts FTW

[MillerBuilt]

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

Hey Jay,
The floater rear end is not lighter than a flange axle rear end ... all other things being equal. The reason to run a floater is safety, bearing longevity, elimination of hub flex & brake knock back. We do a lot to make them light, so they end up pretty close to the weight of a regular flange axle rear end. Sometime they're lighter, depending on what they're being compared to.

I'd have to go find my notes to know what a rear end weighs. The Mod-Lite floater uses a light 10 gauge housing. For the Grand National floaters, we use either a 10 gauge or heavier 7 gauge housing. We typically run the .188" DOM tubes & occasionally run the .125" 4130 tubes. For road course, autocross & street, I prefer the aluminum Mod-Lite hubs & the XHD steel GN drive plates. I dissuade people from running the aluminum drive plates except in high end racing where we can replace them often. The aluminum axle splines wear out too quickly.

For most kits I use Wilwood Spec-37 rotors. For my higher end stuff, we'll run AP rotors. If we're looking at short run cars, we'll go light with a 12.19" x .81" rotor. For long run cars where we need to deal with the heat, we run 1.25" wide rotors in whatever size we pick ... 12.19, 13.06" or 14.00". (FYI - rear brakes run cooler than fronts by about 1/3).

There were no brake kits for floaters that use 13.06" or 14" rotors, so I designed some & had them made. My rotor adapters for the large 13.06" & 14" rotors are made from 6061-T6 & black anodized. They are scalloped for both weight reduction and increased airflow into the rotor.

The caliper brackets welded to the housing are 3/8" thick 1026 steel & we double gusset them on the brakes packages with 13.06" or 14.00" rotors. Speedway Mod-Lite floaters use 18690 Timken bearings rated at 1800# thrust load each. Speedway Grand National floaters use L610549 Timken bearings rated at 2630# thrust load each.

We have some clients that occasionally run 1/2" studs. But ever since we found a good 5/8" fine thread lug nut from Moroso that has a smaller 7/8" hex & 60° conical seat that works with aluminum wheels ... most of my clients run 5/8" fine thread studs.

The Speedway Mod-Lite floaters are complete with hubs, bearings, studs, hardware & axles for $1299, so they're not much more than having a flange axle rear end built. It is safer & eliminates brake knock back.

Ron,
As usual, thank you for taking time to answer, and in detail, but I think I did not ask my question clear enough. I was not needing the entire full floater rear-end set-up weight because I know there are many variables.

What I was trying to figure out is the weight ONLY for the items that I had listed. So basically if you took the components I have listed again, throw them on a scale,,,, what do they weigh?

(1) Snout -
(1) Hub (steel or aluminum? -
(2) Bearings/Races -
(1) Drive Plate & Cap (I assume you run steel) -
(5) Studs -
(1) Caliper Bracket/gussets) -





Thanks in advance, Jay

[Nativefx]

Originally Posted by JSM

BUT,,, is GM's/SKF's C6 ZR1 or C7 hub like I utilize in my offering strong enough? Mark Stielow seams to think/prove so...

Jay, do you happen to know of a link that you could post up about Mark Stielow's thoughts on the setup your talking about? I'd like to read up more about it and his thoughts if he's been running it for a while.

[Nativefx]

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on The GMR parking brake?

http://thegmr.com/?page_id=1706

This may offer additional options I'm guessing? Like I said, I'm really looking to try and learn as much as possible before spending money and worrying about whether I made the right choice?