Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[Mkelcy]

With respect, I'm a little worried about what you're embarking on.

You needn't be an automotive engineer to own one of these old, retro-modded muscle cars, but a fair amount of familiarity with cars, how they work, basic trouble shooting techniques (is the noise associated with engine speed or car speed) and the like is awfully helpful, otherwise you are at the mercy of your local mechanic, who may or may not even be willing to work on an older, modified car.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather to urge you to do a lot of reading, starting with the basics of how engines, transmissions, rear ends, etc. all work, and moving up from there. You also need to know every part that's on your car - i.e., the front brakes came from a 2002 Corvette; the transmission is out of a 2000 Camaro - just to be able to get parts and to get it worked on.

[awr68]

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!!

[Vegas69]

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

455+ CI (with mods) - figure $6K - $8K or so for a good reliable build (with carb, not EFI) at the power levels you're talking about
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread) - Figure $6.5K plus labor
Mini Tubs - Probably $2K (including third party labor)
335 tires & Wheels - Anywhere from $3K to $5K
Like to have the DSE sub - Another $7K or so
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc. - Like Recaros? Figure another $2.5K

So I make it about $29K before body work, paint, powder coating, interior, sound and heat insulation, gauges, HVAC, radio, electrical, engine accessories, headers and exhaust, clutch, fuel system, brakes, engine cooling, transmission, subframe connectors, and all of the other small bits (weather stripping, trim, emblems, etc.).

Your $50K budget is toast already.

To give you some idea, I'm building a '68 Camaro with aftermarket subframe and rear suspension, nice (but not custom) interior, really good seats, BUDGET paint, budget wheels, a GMPP 376/480 engine and so on, and I'll have about $80K - $90K in the car, not including the cost of the car. I've done all the work to the car except media blasting, rust repair and paint and body, so there's very little labor in that number. I have all of the major components sitting here already and I'm in the process of doing final assembly, yet I still find myself ordering $500 worth of stuff from here and $500 worth of stuff from there.

A counter example. I have my "driver" '68 Camaro with stock subframe, stock control arms, Guldstrand mod, SBC, T56, leaf springs, 10 bolt rear and C5 Corvette wheels on adapters. I track the car, take it on multi-thousand mile summer trips, play in the local mountains, etc. It would cost less than a third of what the '68 I'm building will cost to duplicate the "driver" but it's still a fun car that gets lots of comments.

This is a very expensive hobby, and can get totally out of control if you're not careful. So I urge you, as everyone else already has, to sit down and figure out what you want to do, and what it will cost; then double it and that'll be a decent estimate of what it will cost. When that number stuns you, start paring your project and figuring out what's really important and what's not. You may find that a modest build will do everything you want, including being affordable and a project you can actually complete.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by awr68

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!!

Tony --

This is why I said to him earlier -- I wouldn't trust whoever is building the car for him. He's giving him total BS guidance if this is what he's telling him. Or the guy (builder) is clueless. Nobody would build a modern build from the ground up - and put a Richmond 5 speed (non OD) behind a big block built Pontiac. It would be different (MAYBE) if he planned to race it or something like that - where there was a clear reason why you'd do that... but in this case - no such plan has been offered.

RON -- When you say your builder is experienced... what does that mean? Is he a bodyman? A general service shop? A restoration expert? What? What else is he telling you to do with your car?? Spill it all out here and let us try to see what's going on. Do you have pictures you can post? Of the shop? Of the car? Of "before and after"?

[Ron Fox]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Tony --

This is why I said to him earlier -- I wouldn't trust whoever is building the car for him. He's giving him total BS guidance if this is what he's telling him. Or the guy (builder) is clueless. Nobody would build a modern build from the ground up - and put a Richmond 5 speed (non OD) behind a big block built Pontiac. It would be different (MAYBE) if he planned to race it or something like that - where there was a clear reason why you'd do that... but in this case - no such plan has been offered.

RON -- When you say your builder is experienced... what does that mean? Is he a bodyman? A general service shop? A restoration expert? What? What else is he telling you to do with your car?? Spill it all out here and let us try to see what's going on. Do you have pictures you can post? Of the shop? Of the car? Of "before and after"?

It took me almost 2 years to find the builder I am using. At car shows and gatherings I would ask everyone for information about builders and restorers. When I found my builder, Mike, I talked to him for several months about his experience, his knowledge about cars, his past builds, plans for my car, etc. before he came and picked up my '69. I am a very picky person and I have owned my '69 Firebird for 28+ years and the car is like family to me (odd to say). I got 10 references and talked to a few car owners. 2 guys are even return customers with more than one car.

Mike works out of his large and very nice and clean shop at his house. At the monent he is the lone worker in the shop but has a brother and nephew who help him out from time to time. The shop has its different areas...tear down area, body work area, paint booth, and finishing area. Mike does it all from start to finish. But in the beginning to told Mike that I may part out certain parts of the car like the motor, rear end, etc.

Eventhough I am not a gear head I have helped out by tearing down certain parts of the car, cleaning and media blasting small parts and doing what I can to learn and to save (hourly) money. I have spent many hours in the shop and have learned by this process more about my car.

I have many photos of my car. Not sure if I have too many of the shop. I am at work so I will try and post them soon.

But in general I have faith in my builder. Even though my build has not started we talk back and forth about idea's for my car which are not always set in stone. And of course I will have the final say so before certain work begins and which direction I go. And I will always come on this site to get idea's and opinions from all you guys.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

Sounds good....