ultimate pro touring car discussion?

[Vegas69]

That's the thing legend. These aren't M5's. These parts and cars don't have a gazillion dollars in R&D. It's impossible to build a car that's that compliant in every avenue. Impossible. If those are your goals, I'd save your money and buy a modern car. By the way, I'll give myself one hell of a chance against that M5 on the race track.

LOL....Frank,you got me. I've got so much insulation that it cruises pretty quiet even with the dumps. Second skin, heat wave pro, carpet with jute pading. I also have solid motor mounts and body mounts. I simply don't have the tunnel or hood clearance for engine movement.(Sombody, clears his throat, put half height body bushings in my car) The engine is internally balanced down to the clutch. QA1 end links out back. I tore those air ride bushings up in one autocross. A turn one power steering pump that doesn't work great at idle. I puked the stock pump in one Road Race event. More aggressive front pads that make noise intermittently. The other pads didn't make a peep but didn't have great cold performance or longevity under road racing conditions. Solid lifters in the engine. They are really just as quiet as the previous engine and the hydraulic cam. Maybe more so. I bought top shelf lifters, stud girdle, etc. That was the only way to make big power at high rpm reliably. These are the things I'm talking about. I'm guilty as charged. It's simply harder to make a car do two things well. My whole point was really to get in some of these guys heads before they lay out the money on what they think they want. More importantly, what they think the end result will be. It sure as hell won't be an M5 no matter how much money you spend.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

I simply don't have the tunnel or hood clearance for engine movement.(Sombody, clears his throat, put half height body bushings in my car) .

I'll never do that again!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

I simply don't have the tunnel or hood clearance for engine movement.(Sombody, clears his throat, put half height body bushings in my car) .

I'll never do that again! And FYI.

The absolute number one car I am called and asked how much to duplicate.....................

Payback!

So I think you nailed it.

[parsonsj]

This is a good thread. Comfort, NVH, and entertainment are huge components in having a satisfying driving experience. That was a real lesson learned from II Much.

I started off with that car having no radio, heat, ac, much interior, or sound deadening. Over the 3 years I drove it, I was continually adding things:

1. sound deadening
2. high end carpeting (Mercedes level)
3. heat/defrost/AC (Vintage Air Gen IV setup)... I had to tear the car apart for that.
4. stereo -- a simple iPhone-based system, but I had tunes along with a sub-woofer
5. swapped the Locker differential for a TrueTrac
6. swapped the heim joints for Spohn's Del-Sphere Pivot Joints
7. had 3 clutches in the car before I found one I liked.

And I always regretted filling in the header panel and losing the windshield wipers. And thank goodness Frank stopped me from using a Lexan windshield.

jp

[Vegas69]

Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms

I'll never do that again! And FYI.

The absolute number one car I am called and asked how much to duplicate.....................

Payback!

So I think you nailed it.

I'm sure you tell them that you couldn't do that to your good buddy Todd.

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by 69MSA

What he said...
We're all talking about building cars that are great at everything and yet here we are going back and forth about the topic because its pretty impossible to make the ultimate, "I'm good at everything" car. Some cars are more race car, some more street car, and some are more show car. What is perfect for one person won't be for the next. For example, Bad Penny is straddling the line of being too much of a race car for me, but Steve is so madly in love with her that he can look passed her faults (i.e. climbing in and out, which is not easy) . Personally I'd rather have a car like the DSE '69 that is practically a beater with one hell of a suspension and drive train. On the other end of the spectrum towards show car, there's my Camaro. There are times I wish I could just leave it in a parking lot without worrying, or kill cones without guilt.

Matt

"madly in love" is a bit strong.. lol

BUT, my last car was so street-rod that I wanted one a bit more in your face.. it's my play car, not my daily commuter so I don't mind the side bar or the firmer ride. I still think she rides nice and is a pleasure to drive. And yes, I wear my four-point harness even when I drive around town.

If there's a spectrum where 1 is a pure show car and 10 is a race car Penny falls at around 6.. use to be 7 before I put in the audio system

I wanted an edgy play car.. I got one.. but I think that if people start trying to build race cars in the guise of a street car then they won't be very happy, except maybe when they are on the race track.

[GregWeld]

I read this from start to finish - and then had to laugh to myself.

What the end result is/was - a description of what "pro touring" is. A car that is good at most things - handles - stops - goes like stink - wins the occasional car show trophy - and can be driven in comfort and style with cold A/C and killer tunes blasting. Uncork the headers and have fun on a weekend track.

More than that is too much "race car"

Less than that is "just another car"

I agree that Payback has that nailed. Looks great - great stance - big azz motor - big azz tires - big brakes... driver is so so... but he gets the job done.

If I was "judging" and had to put brackets at each end of the description of what is a pro touring car I would choose it like this:

At one end would be Matts car: Just a little too much show car
Payback and Jackass, the Mule would set the bar
Steves car: is just a little too much race car

Both (Matts and Steves) would fit the "pro touring" description for me - but they'd also represent the end caps.

[Steve1968LS2]

Personally I don't see the "race car" in Penny.. aside for the door bars that is.. lol

To be honest I wouldn't have built that cage, but it came in the car and is part of the car's history.. plus I hate painting cages.

The no AC/Heater/Wipers is just a function of where I live.

[GregWeld]

Steve --

I wasn't picking your car apart... rather - just stating an opinion from a observers point of view of a diffiniton.

Here's the thing that I think is important.... it's the TOURING part of "pro touring"....

So when I look at it that way - the car would need WIPERS - A/C - Radio - and heater.... because if you want to TOUR and do Power TOUR - you might need all those things - or some of those things to be COMFORTABLE.

Comfort being an entirely different "debate".

I wanted to add too -- that my comments somewhat come from a few years spent doing NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society). That entire process is about "VALIDATION"... The judging has everything to do with validating that your car meets the specs. It's a tough competition - because it directly relates to your wallet size. If you want MAXIMUM points - then you need NOS wheels (10 grand) and NOS tires (6 grand) and you need NOS coils (300 bucks)....

WHAT THE OUSCI did -- was like NCRS used to do -- it was validation that your car could actually perform as advertised. It also could be used (El Toro falls into this as well) to give a guy a "list" of what needs to be improved. The way I used judging sheets from a national NCRS meet. I went home and worked on all the deducted points. Since there are multiple 'tests' of the cars systems, you end up with a list of what COULD be better. Todd - Steve - Dave/Mary - are shining examples of those "A type" people that use that info and go home and improve their cars and sort out the weakness. But to me - here's where there is a MAJOR difference..... nothing wrong with this difference - I'm just stating the obvious (I think).... STEVE and POZZIS want to WIN.... and will do what is required to WIN - Second place is not an option. Todd (Vegas) and or Matt - might want to win - but are unwilling to compromise their overall satisfaction with their cars. By this I mean - Matt might be unwilling to damage his paint in the interest of all out charge in the cones... But he's happy as a clam to participate - and he should be proud of his performance.

So -- in this vain -- I think we all agreed that the COBRA probably didn't really fit the description of a "pro touring" car... I loved it - but I wouldn't like it on a Friday afternoon on an LA freeway... But I'd love to drive Todds or Matts... or Bad Penny.

[Vegas69]

I'm flattered to be mentioned in the same sentence as two Stielow builds. I'll rack that one up to us being buddies. I'd have to give myself a few deductions. Carburetor, no wipers, and dumps. All three are easily fixable. It's easier to track a carbed car and it rains 5 times a year around here. The dumps are Frank Serafines fault.

Jackass is the bullseye right now in Pro-Touring. My only gripe would be the full roll cage and the lack of a great stereo. If you look at Stielows new project, it lacks the cage in the driver and passenger compartment.