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Old 05-28-2012, 11:51 AM
PhillySpeedNYC PhillySpeedNYC is offline
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Default Hydraboost Groaning , will this ever go away?

I just had a kit installed on my Mustang and the brakes work great but the steering makes a groaning sound and i get some minor pedal kickback

the shop went through all the steps to bleed the air from the system and i do not see any air bubbles in the pump reservoir>

now i just got home and pulled the cap and saw a bunch of air bubbles that broke clear in 2-3 minutes. it seems to show air bubbles every other time i drive the car.

i keep turning the steering left to right and no real help

does it take some time to really get all the air out?

i only have 10 miles on the kit so far and i am super happy how it stops i just want to solve this groaning noise.
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Old 05-28-2012, 12:02 PM
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Drive it
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:17 PM
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I put a Hydroboost in my Wife's 75 Bronco.

Here are the bleeding steps I used when I set it up.
http://www.agrperformance.com/AGR-In...structions.pdf

It shouldn't groan. What pump are you using is it up for the task of big tires and hydro?

Let it sit a little and double check you don't have any small leaks. Start by discharging the hydro with three pedal depressions. Cycle the steering S L O W L Y a few times and recheck the reservoir level.
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:54 PM
PhillySpeedNYC PhillySpeedNYC is offline
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When I first fired it up the return line fitting at the hydra boost unit leaked badly which I then fixed and now there are no more leaks. My car has a randals power rack and pinion which has a low volume high pressure GM pump with the black plastic fluid reservoir. It must be air still. I might try the steering wheel left and right circulation later and check. I leave my cap loose on my pump while I do this. Should I not? I just do not want to keep driving it risking burning up my pump or something
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:14 PM
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Do you have the return line T'd? What size reservoir do you have on it?
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:34 PM
PhillySpeedNYC PhillySpeedNYC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musclerodz View Post
Do you have the return line T'd? What size reservoir do you have on it?
Yes its T in as the instructions suggested, not sure on the reservoir on this pump, its the same style pump all the rack and pinion guys are using.
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillySpeedNYC View Post
Yes its T in as the instructions suggested, not sure on the reservoir on this pump, its the same style pump all the rack and pinion guys are using.
I don't like the "T", it caused me and many others the same problem you're having. I eliminated the "T" and got a good baffled reservoir from Mike at Musclerodz and it completely eliminated the foaming and noise.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camcojb View Post
I don't like the "T", it caused me and many others the same problem you're having. I eliminated the "T" and got a good baffled reservoir from Mike at Musclerodz and it completely eliminated the foaming and noise.
thanks for this response any chance you can direct me to a link or photo and explain what i would have to ask my shop to do for me? I will get this part and have it installed i guess
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillySpeedNYC View Post
thanks for this response any chance you can direct me to a link or photo and explain what i would have to ask my shop to do for me? I will get this part and have it installed i guess
You'd need to ask Mike what he's using now, but mine was black to be more stealth and go with the color scheme I had under the hood. It's not just an empty tube, it's screened and baffled to control the oil and foaming, plus already had the extra fitting for the return line.


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Shannon at Modo Innovations for the cool billet DBW bracket
Roadster Shop for their Chevelle SPEC Chassis
Dakota Digital for their Chevelle HDX Gauge Package
Painless Performance for their wiring harness

Ron Davis Radiators for their radiator and fan assembly.
Baer Brakes for their front and rear brakes

Texas Speed and Performance for their 427 LS Stroker
American Powertrain for their ProFit Magnum T56 kit
Currie Enterprises for their 9" Third Member
Forgeline for their GF3 Wheels
McLeod Racing for their RXT street twin clutch
Ididit for their steering column
Holley for their EFI and engine parts
Lokar and Clayton Machine for their pedals and door and window handles
Morris Classic Concepts for their 3 point belts and side mirrors
Thermotec for their heat sleeve and sound deadening products
Restomod Air for their Tru Mod A/C kit
Mightymouse Solutions for their catch can
Magnaflow for their 3" exhaust system
Aeromotive for their dual Phantom fuel system
Vintage Air for their new Mid Mount LS front drive
Hydratech Braking for their hydroboost system
Borgeson for their stainless steering shaft and u joints
Eddie Motorsports for their hood and trunk hinges and misc parts
TMI Products for their seats, door panels, and dash pad
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:54 PM
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Noise will typically be as a result of air in the PS system, and will usually dissipate with a few drive cycles. When I say drive cycles, it isn't so much about the amount of miles driven as it is about coming up to full operating temp, then cooling back down completely. Keep your engine RPM's down during the first few drive cycles, otherwise you can picture a quart of PS fluid in a blender while hitting puree (!). A hydroboost equipped PS system is twice as large as a standard PS system, and will therefore take twice as long to "degass".

Below is a copy of a rough draft I aspire to eventually publish up on our website:

Excessive back pressure in the brake assist unit’s low pressure return circuit can cause PS system overheating and brake self apply. A quick test you can run to rule out restrictions or problems in the low pressure return line plumbing if you are running a T fitting arrangement: Place a towel under the brake assist unit to catch any PS fluid, then disconnect the low pressure return hose from the brake assist unit's low pressure return nipple and temporarily plug this hose. Then perform a complete bypass of the low pressure return line circuit by connecting up a suitable temporary hose to the brake assist unit low pressure return line nipple, and then running the other end of this hose either into the "mouth" of the PS reservoir or into a windshield washer jug. The only time you will see any real flow from the low pressure return nipple on the brake unit is when you are releasing the brakes, at which time the brake unit will exhaust roughly a couple tablespoons of PS fluid. When your foot is not on the brake, there should only be a drip, drip, drip (if anything at all) coming out of the brake unit's low pressure return. If you find the PS system does not heat up anymore and basically acts in an improved fashion, then this indicates that there must be a bottleneck or restriction of some sort in the low pressure return line plumbing that must be reworked to remove restriction as needed.

Note that you must also verify that your PS fill cap is of a vented design. If the PS fill cap is not vented, pressure will build up inside of the power steering system due to thermal expansion. This pressure will exert pressure against the back side of the power output piston inside of the brake unit, and may cause the brakes to start self applying as a result when warmed up. If you should experience this, pop the PS cap loose – if you hear a release of pressure similar to opening a carbonated beverage and the brakes are no longer dragging / self applied, then this indicates that your PS fill cap is not venting to atmospheric pressure. The obvious fix here would be to replace the cap with a vented design, though some have also found their success in using a pin drill to carefully provide venting.

The external accumulator may also be packed full of foam or air, and depressing the pedal firmly 8-10 times with the engine off will trigger the system into purging any air or foam that may be trapped out of the accumulator. After doing such, then start the engine and cycle the steering full right then full a three to four times. Repeat this procedure over the next one to two drive cycles – do not repeat this procedure in a back to back sequence, as this may induce further power steering fluid foaming.

Additional FYI - When your foot is not on the brakes / brake unit not applied, it is literally a port to port interconnect on the brake unit. Spoken a different way, the hydroboost unit is an open center hydraulic device, which means that it is invisible to the PS system when the brake is not being applied = it may as well just be part of the high pressure hose between the PS pump and the steering gear. That being stated, make 100% sure that the brake pedal rod adjustment under the dash isn’t set too aggressively, as we have seen brake light switch and rubber pedal stop bumper adjustments at fault for not allowing the brake unit to go into a full state of release = back off the pedal rod adjustment if needed to make sure that there is zero preload on the brake unit input piston when the brakes are not in use or temporarily disconnect the brake pedal rod linkage entirely. You can also take a rubber tipped blow gun and blow back and forth through the high pressure ports on the brake unit – make sure to have a towel handy as some fluid will blow out. If you cannot blow through the high pressure ports on the brake unit, remove the master cylinder and then tap the master cylinder pushrod inward firmly using an average hammer, as this will force a sticking pressure control valve inside of the brake unit to free up (if some fleck of debris has possibly gotten into it and hung it up).

We have had some customers experience difficulties over the years when using hydroboost systems with mini pumps and the typical aftermarket remote reservoirs (low on capacity and do not offer proper de-aeration engineering). Some have managed to get their setups running decently, though most have found that the only way they could get the PS system to work right is by swapping out the remote reservoir to this SR-126H unit from PSC:

Reservoir itself:

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/gen-iv...-filter-1.html

With hose kit:

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/gen-iv...-w-filter.html

You also need to make 100% certain that all fittings, hose and adapters between the reservoir and the PS pump have a MINIMUM ½” inner diameter, otherwise the PS pump will cavitate and always run noisy (yes, I am only talking about the pump feed hose between the reservoir and the PS pump)(all other hoses in the PS system will be AN-6 or 3/8). Some customers I have worked with have stated that the remote reservoirs are shipped with inadequate AN-8 sized feed nipple with less than a 7/16 ID = guaranteed cavitation issues per the bottleneck inside of the adapters (the factory usage of these pumps ran a minimum 5/8 ID in the pump feed by comparison).

https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=15052

https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10930

The other key factors we have found over the years is to make sure that the replacement pump isn’t flowing excessively, as this can cause all kinds of similar troubles also. The factory stock “canned ham” full size classic Saginaw P series pump would typically flow about 2.2 GPM (gallons per minute), yet we have seen many other prominent suppliers providing pumps that are flowing WAY too much at 3.5 to 3.8 GPM, which causes excessive heat and pressures – backing them down to 2.2 GPM by replacing the PS pump output fitting tames them right back down. Here is a replacement output fitting / valve that fits many of the popular aftermarket GM based minipumps:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BSP-RP1300/

http://www.purechoicemotorsports.com...rod/prd333.htm

http://www.purechoicemotorsports.com...rod/prd334.htm

You would think that the suppliers would know that they should be trying to mimic the pressure and flow volumes of the stock old school pump that they are replacing with the mini pump, but they must be suffering “mores law” – if a little is good, then more is better? Um, no… FYI – you can remove the high pressure output fitting out of the PS pump and roughly gauge the GPM by comparing against drill bit sizes, somewhat like carb jet sizes: .125” aka 1/8” usually equates to about 2.0 GPM, .140” aka 9/64” is right about 2.4 GPM. If you have any larger sizing in the central fluid flow orifice, you are flowing way more than needed. http://www.krcpower.com/flowvalves.html has it right, in that you can buy individual output fittings to tune / tailor the flow rates, but alas you are not working with one of their pumps so it’s a moot point. Another neat little trick is to try some of this snake oil, as we have used it with success in quite a few crabby applications:

http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-198/LUBE...uid+Protectant

Another really neat setup that allows adjustment at the twist of a knob:

http://www.heidts.com/steering_kits_components.html

Part # PS 101 adjustable PS valve

http://www.classicperform.com/tech_a...PropValve1.pdf

Do please also note this statement located on the last page of the installation instructions:

*Please allow up to 500 miles of operation for the systems to fully “settle / break in”! Until all the air pockets and “micro bubbles” settle out of the assist unit and power steering system, operations may be initially noisy, accompanied by some “pedal kickback” upon braking, and “stiff / slow pedal return” caused by air in the systems.

Today’s synthetic PS fluids, such as the Royal Purple MaxEz or the Redline PS fluid are absolutely fantastic, though you do not have to run the synthetics. As far as fluid, trans fluid will work from a basic operational standpoint, but has nowhere near the lubricity that PS fluid does, and is not designed to run at the higher pressures found in a power steering system. Case in point: If you were to add PS fluid to your auto trans, it wouldn’t be long before it started slipping, proving out that PS fluid has much better lubricating qualities. The hydroboost unit itself won’t experience all too much wear, but the PS pump and steering gear need the extreme pressure additives found in PS fluid to prevent accelerated wear. You do not have to worry about purging every last drop of ATF out of the PS system, as the fluids will mix acceptably.

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